What Is Your Definition Of Lager?

[Thirsty Boy]

You can definatively say whether a yeast is an ale yeast or a lager yeast (the rafinose thing) but I think its pretty obvious that the same can't be said for the beer that might be made with that yeast.

I suspect that if you are looking for strict definitions, then Lagers and Ales could only really be defined by their yeast, because everything else is up for debate.

However, for practical purposes, perhaps we should define it in the same way you might define a duck --

If it looks like a lager; and it smells like a lager; and it quacks like a lager then........... you get the picture

For mine.... I'm back to roughly the veiw expressed by Kai in the second post in this thread. If its brewed with a lager yeast, even at high temps and without storage at low temps, its a still technically a lager. Just probably a lousy example of a lager.

But if you present me with a beer that you tell me is a lager, and I think tastes like a lager... who gives a rats arse if it was brewed with something that technically was an ale yeast. It just doesn't matter.

 

[SpillsMostOfIt]

Lager is any beer that comes in a blue coloured tin and is exported from Australia all over the world...

Sorry - I just had to.

 

[DJR]

Lager is any beer that comes in a blue coloured tin and is exported from Australia all over the world...

Sorry - I just had to.

I thought that was "Australian for Beer, mate"

<_<

I have a Kolsch here which to most people would be indistinguishable from a lager (Alt yeast, fermented at 15C, lagered for 2 weeks, incredibly clean). I would never call it a lager though.

 

[MHB]

I think we have to stop thinking that there are only 2 types of beer Ale and Lager.

The boundaries are blurring, the oldest and perhaps best example of a hybrid beer is Kolsch, tho there are many others. Look at Little Creatures, I dont know for sure but I suspect from the way the beer tastes that it's an Ale, brewed reasonably cool (say 18+/- 1C) then cold conditioned, like a lager. The beer does not become a Lager, nor is it a traditional Ale - welcome to the wonderful fuzzy zone in-between, the world of Hybrid Beer.

How about some of the Belgian beers, is a beer Ale when there are over a dozen different micro-organisms playing a roll in the fermentation, up to half of them being yeasts outside the Ale/Lager divide.

I think where we are running into trouble is that very few of the beers we see are "Traditional" examples of the class (either Lager or Ale), exclusion from the Lager class, doesn't grant automatic into the Ale class.

There are attributes that DEFINE Lager, once one of these is omitted the beer can no longer be viewed as a traditional or classic Lager.

A cold conditioned Ale can likewise no longer be viewed as a traditional or classic Ale, nor is it a Lager, to think so is to think that BMW hubcaps doubles the "quality and value" of a Hyundai, it just isnt the case.

Maybe we need a broader classification system something like:-

Ale - Hybrid Ale - Hybrid - Hybrid Lager - Lager

With Wheat Beers and Esoteric Beer off to the side somewhere to catch anything that wont fit into the above.


MHB

 

[Trough Lolly]

I agree that the lines are becoming blurred as to what sort of beer you can make - and that's fine...Experimentation potentially improves our understanding and appreciation of beer and if we have a beer that's neither a lager or an ale, then we can certainly call it a hybrid (or if you prefer, you can call it whatever you want!).

In order to identify a type of beer, we logically must have agreed criteria. Those criteria may be simple (light v dark, flat v gassy etc) but simple criteria, by nature, lead to confusion and potential mis-interpretation. Such is the case, I believe, in defining a Lager which is the theme of this thread.

<<snip>>...How about some of the Belgian beers, is a beer Ale when there are over a dozen different micro-organisms playing a roll in the fermentation, up to half of them being yeasts outside the Ale/Lager divide.

Agreed - if we use yeast as the base criteria then this example is a hybrid beer, but that doesn't mean that we can't ferment a Belgian beer with lager yeast and call it a Belgian Lager or vice versa with ale yeast...

A cold conditioned Ale can likewise no longer be viewed as a traditional or classic Ale, nor is it a Lager <<snip>>

Sorry, but I disagree - you called it an Ale that was cold conditioned. Why isn't it an ale after it's been cold conditioned? The importance is not whether it's classical or traditional or yummy, it's an ale and whether you strained it through some underpants and stored it in the Bavarian Alps amongst the goats and sheep is not important....if you thumbed your nose to the reinheitsgebot and added vanilla pods and some chilli to your pilsner that you fermented with lager yeast, it's still a lager (just not one that you'd expect to be served at the Oktoberfest!!)

Maybe we need a broader classification system something like:-

Ale - Hybrid Ale - Hybrid - Hybrid Lager - Lager

With Wheat Beers and Esoteric Beer off to the side somewhere to catch anything that wont fit into the above.
MHB

Agreed - and perhaps the folk who wrote the BJCP guidelines did exactly that some years ago? h34r:

Cheers,
TL

 

[matti]

Sorry, but I disagree - you called it an Ale that was cold conditioned. Why isn't it an ale after it's been cold conditioned? The importance is not whether it's classical or traditional or yummy, it's an ale and whether you strained it through some underpants and stored it in the Bavarian Alps amongst the goats and sheep is not important....if you thumbed your nose to the reinheitsgebot and added vanilla pods and some chilli to your pilsner that you fermented with lager yeast, it's still a lager (just not one that you'd expect to be served at the Oktoberfest!!)

I couldnt agree more.
Now I havent been to any brew competitions and not likely to go to one in the near future let alone put in an entry as I haven't made a beer that is worthy of being entered.
Edit(Meaning ,I haven't made one well balanced or clear enough but still really tasty)
Did a quick google and found that there are different classes of lager as in Pale lager, strong lager, Dark lager other/australian lagers etc.
Then each class have a subdivision of particular types where Kolsch is mentioned as a pale lager.
Vic2006 guidelines


Are these beer classes homogene across the board or does each competition have their own classes of what suit them at the time or whats in vouge at the time?

I think there should be a strict definition determined of what yeasts are registered as bottom fermenting yeasts and top fermenting yeast. Anything in between can go into the other/australian/american lagers

 

[matti]

ANAWBS
It appear that ANAWBS has over come this problem by not putting in the word lager in the categories.