What are the elements of carbonation?

[morebierplease]

Hi Guys,

I'm about to brew a 'Grodziskie', for no other reason that I randomly came across the style browsing related pages in a wiki somewhere. One element of the beer is that is highly carbonated, to the point that "an average of four to five percent of the bottles would burst due to carbonation levels exceeding the strength of the bottles". Strangely, Wikipedia displays almost the exact recipe original commercial brewers used.

This interests me because I've noticed that some of my bottled beers have a medium carbonation but will froth and overflow in the bottle when opened but some will barely froth yet are far more carbonated yet these same beers will pour amazingly with great head retention.

One brewer once told me that his good head retention was because he didn't buy a particular brand of grain.

It seems that 'head retention' really is the balance between the level of carbonation in the beer and the rate at which the froth bubbles burst. So what exactly is it that causes the differences in carbonation

• What causes the bubbles to burst quicker in some beers than others?
• Why do some beers overflow even when they are at a low level of carbonation?
• Why do some beers form large carbonation bubbles and some small?
• Is it possible to calculate the highest possible carbonation to achieve the "balance" using a specific variable like FG or hop oil residues etc.?

Obviously there are external variables like remnant sanitiser or dishwashing detergents, but lets forget about these, I'm just interested in how the ingredients make a difference.

 

[warra48]

I've never noticed a difference in carbonation from using different malts, and I've used malts from just about all available to us in Aus.

I had a problem recently with gushers, and put mine down to using napisan to clean my bottles. Even after several good rinses, I believe there was still some virtually invisible film left in the bottles, which caused them to gush on opening. Deposits of beerstone in the bottles will also act as nucleation points, so now I clean mine with Brewclean and a bottles brush. That's solved my problem.

Chilling your bottles for at least 24 hours minimum before opening also seems to make a difference, as it allows the colder beer to reabsorb more CO2.

I'd venture to say if you notice a variation in the same batch, with only some gushing and not others, then logically it would seem to exclude the malt as being a factor.

 

[Lyrebird_Cycles]

What causes the bubbles to burst quicker in some beers than others?

Film stability of the bubble surface.

Certain things enhance this, notably some glycoproteins. Some malts (eg wheat malt, carapils) increase the level of these foam stabilising compounds, some decrease it.

Why do some beers overflow even when they are at a low level of carbonation?

That's called fobbing and is generally to do with the presence of bubble formation promoters (acting as nucleation points).

Why do some beers form large carbonation bubbles and some small?

Film strength of the bubble surface and the interaction between the various surface energies. Many of the same compounds that stabilise the bubble surface also strengthen it, so the two are related.

Is it possible to calculate the highest possible carbonation to achieve the "balance" using a specific variable like FG or hop oil residues etc.?

No.

 

[MHB]

If you are really interested buy a copy of Foam by Charlie Bamforth, there are a lot more components to the question than you realise.

Interesting to see someone making a Grodziskie, Weyermann Oak Smoked Wheat is available and I have always wondered what to do with it, so now I know have to give one a go.
Traditionally 100% Wheat, will make for some interesting brewing processes, I have tried 100% wheat (not smoked) and found the crack to be very important.
Be interesting to see how this goes.
Mark

 

[damoninja]

That's called fobbing and is generally to do with the presence of bubble formation promoters (acting as nucleation points)..

One of my beers consistently does this. Even if I serve it at a trickle it wants to foam up like a mofo.

 

[morebierplease]

I've never noticed a difference in carbonation from using different malts, and I've used malts from just about all available to us in Aus.

I had a problem recently with gushers, and put mine down to using napisan to clean my bottles. Even after several good rinses, I believe there was still some virtually invisible film left in the bottles, which caused them to gush on opening. Deposits of beerstone in the bottles will also act as nucleation points, so now I clean mine with Brewclean and a bottles brush. That's solved my problem.

Chilling your bottles for at least 24 hours minimum before opening also seems to make a difference, as it allows the colder beer to reabsorb more CO2.

I'd venture to say if you notice a variation in the same batch, with only some gushing and not others, then logically it would seem to exclude the malt as being a factor.

Thanks warra, it wasn't the carbonation but rather the head retention this brewer was talking about. He was discussing the quality of the malt's impact on head retention

I also wasn't referring to different carbonations in the same batch but in different batches

Film stability of the bubble surface.

Certain things enhance this, notably some glycoproteins. Some malts (eg wheat malt, carapils) increase the level of these foam stabilising compounds, some decrease it.


That's called fobbing and is generally to do with the presence of bubble formation promoters (acting as nucleation points).


Film strength of the bubble surface and the interaction between the various surface energies. Many of the same compounds that stabilise the bubble surface also strengthen it, so the two are related.



No.

Thanks for this Lyrebird, some good info here!

If you are really interested buy a copy of Foam by Charlie Bamforth, there are a lot more components to the question than you realise.

Interesting to see someone making a Grodziskie, Weyermann Oak Smoked Wheat is available and I have always wondered what to do with it, so now I know have to give one a go.
Traditionally 100% Wheat, will make for some interesting brewing processes, I have tried 100% wheat (not smoked) and found the crack to be very important.
Be interesting to see how this goes.
Mark

Thanks for that book reference Mark. Looks to have good reviews.

 

[MHB]

The most useful part of the book is in the back, Charlie coming from a QA background (see Standards of Brewing) he puts in a diagnostic table that looks at solving "Foam" issues in a systematic way. The problem solving process involves simple practical advice on how to identify the cause of problems and how to fix them.
Anything I see by Charles Bamforth is worth reading, there are another couple in the series have to get them as soon as the budget allows.
Mark