What Affect Missing Mashout Temperature

[punkin]

Just a technical question from a newbie here, but since i changed my mash tun to the new version with temp probe mounted at the bottom instead of floating on top, i've found that i am missing my mashout temp when adding sparge water.

My process is very rough and ready, i add buckets of mixed boiling and cold water 15l at a time, monitoring temp as i go. Seemed to work really well before and still does for the mash, but i seem t be only getting as high as 71-72C on most of my sparges.
If i float the probe on top it still gives me similar temps to before, but even lots of stirring can't get the bottom probe to rise.

What i wanted to know was the effect of the mashout temp?

I know with mash temp changes up or down from 66 will give differences in body or percieved sweetness in a finnished beer, but not what the mash out temp of 75 does and what will change if it's lower or higher?


I admit i haven't searched as i had no idea on how to add that as a search term. <_<

 

[donburke]

Just a technical question from a newbie here, but since i changed my mash tun to the new version with temp probe mounted at the bottom instead of floating on top, i've found that i am missing my mashout temp when adding sparge water.

My process is very rough and ready, i add buckets of mixed boiling and cold water 15l at a time, monitoring temp as i go. Seemed to work really well before and still does for the mash, but i seem t be only getting as high as 71-72C on most of my sparges.
If i float the probe on top it still gives me similar temps to before, but even lots of stirring can't get the bottom probe to rise.

What i wanted to know was the effect of the mashout temp?

I know with mash temp changes up or down from 66 will give differences in body or percieved sweetness in a finnished beer, but not what the mash out temp of 75 does and what will change if it's lower or higher?


I admit i haven't searched as i had no idea on how to add that as a search term. <_<

a couple of things i see as happening;

if you havent denatured the enzymes then conversion is still happening, i.e. a amylase @ 71-72, mucking up your intended mash profile

and the wort will be more viscous at lower temperature, which may leave more extract in the grains affecting efficiency

 

[CONNOR BREWARE]

Do you batch spare in two steps? As in do you pull off your runnings and start boiling then batch spare again?

If you do why not get your calcs right so you can Hit the mash out temp with additions of hot water alone?

The why will be answered by the experts pretty soon. I researched this a little bit a while ago and came to the conclusion that it was good to get mashout temp for a few reasons. All which help with consistent brewing.

But you have found that not getting it still produces you good beer. So maybe you aren't denaturing the enzymes till they hit the kettle and that will give some variable, but it sounds like not having that step precisely locked in hasn't hurt you so far.

Should be good to hear what the gurus have to say on this, good topic punkin.

Ciro

 

[Charst]

Just a technical question from a newbie here, but since i changed my mash tun to the new version with temp probe mounted at the bottom instead of floating on top, i've found that i am missing my mashout temp when adding sparge water.

My process is very rough and ready, i add buckets of mixed boiling and cold water 15l at a time, monitoring temp as i go. Seemed to work really well before and still does for the mash, but i seem t be only getting as high as 71-72C on most of my sparges.
If i float the probe on top it still gives me similar temps to before, but even lots of stirring can't get the bottom probe to rise.

What i wanted to know was the effect of the mashout temp?

I know with mash temp changes up or down from 66 will give differences in body or percieved sweetness in a finnished beer, but not what the mash out temp of 75 does and what will change if it's lower or higher?


I admit i haven't searched as i had no idea on how to add that as a search term. <_<

Im not ofay with mounted temp probes and whether they can be removed but is it the exact same probe measuring from The top and then measuring from bottom? If not the you probably have a thermometer that's out of calibration.

 

[bignath]

and the wort will be more viscous at lower temperature, which may leave more extract in the grains affecting efficiency

isnt a fluids viscosity increased as it gets thinner or is it thicker? I thought thinner, therefore wouldnt increased viscosity occur at higher temps?

is it the exact same probe measuring from The top and then measuring from bottom? If not the you probably have a thermometer that's out of calibration.

Precisely what i was thinking...

 

[Screwtop]

To achieve mash out, wort is heated to above 77C to begin denaturing enzymes, ceasing conversion and setting mash profile. This can be done by including a MO step or by batch sparging, draining first runnings to the kettle and applying heat. Doesn't take long for a small amount of first runnings wort to rise from mash temp to mash out temp in the kettle. Adding second running to the hot first runnings in the kettle can result in the temp of all wort in the kettle now being above mash out temp.................mission accomplished!

Screwy

 

[crozdog]

hi punkin,

mashout stops all of the enzyme action (denatures them) thereby locking in a malt/sugar profile - great if you want to consistently repeat a brew. It also makes the grainbed and wort more liquid (better viscosity) allowing better draining. For mashes with LG ratio of 2+ l/kg mashout isn't really needed as it is already pretty loose/liquid.

A lot of homebrewers skip the mashout step with no consequences - if you have full conversion (iodine test) and a high L/G ration there is no benefit IMHO. The enzymes get denatured in the boil anyway & if conversion is complete, what do you achieve?

That said, in the interests of repeatability, I mash out with a volume of hot liquor that represents all of my losses (tun dead space, grain absorption, evaporation, kettle dead space). My mash regime is:
- mash in with half of the desired final volume
- mash out with volume of losses
- sparge with half of the desired final volume

eg for a 50l batch
mash in - 25l
mash out - around 25l depending on grain bill
sparge - 25l

If you batch sparge, you can use your spargee as a combined mahout / sparge if your liquor is hot enough

Brewing calculators like in beer smith etc will calculate how hot the addition needs to be to hit your numbers (assuming you can't heat your tun).

Don't forget - its your beer - you can make it however you like. :beerbang:

beers
croz

 

[punkin]

Thanks guys. I have a funny system compared to what i see most of you use. i only have a 50l keg atm for heating my hot water and do 84l batches. I have a pump and have a stack of brand new rims in the shed yadda yadda, but i like th manual guesswork system i have now.

I'll heat 50l of water to boiling and then drain the boiling water into a graduated bucket adding cold water by eye.
For the intial strike it's usually around say 50-54 l at 70 something deg to reach my strike temp once grain is added (whatever brewmate tells me).
Doing 15l at a time i can get the water spot on, add my grain and be within a couple of points of strike temp every time. if not i have a stick heater, but haven't had to use it for quite a while now i have my eye in.

I'll drain the mash at the appropriate time, again into buckets 10l at at ime and add to my 160l kettle getting it up to boil as i go. Once it's all drained the sparge water is usually ready, but i may need up to 70l for that. I have 50l boiling and add water again by eye, stirring as i add each 15l. I add all the sparge water at once, stir and wait ten minutes to settle before draining and adding to the kettle (which has come up to the boil by this time). I believe Palmer calls this the English sparge.

Before when i was using a floating jaycar probe i was hitting it very well, the probe has been tested in boiling water and is about 1 deg off.

I now have a better probe, that i have calibrated and it sits at the bottom odf the mash tun. At the bottom the temp is lower than the liquid at the top. But i've only been getting like 72 or so sometimes 70.

The beer seems to be good still, just sometimes i am getting a gluten layer on top that causes slow or stuck sparges. i believe this is because of the lower mash out temps.

Old mash tun





New mashtun

 

[bignath]

Pumkin,

Whered you get that thermo from?

 

[punkin]

Pumkin,

Whered you get that thermo from?

Ebay, came with two solid and two bare wire K type probes. I was going to mount two probes in the esky, but in the end i figured that was just too anal for a punkinhead.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/330664960384?ss...984.m1497.l2649

 

[donburke]

isnt a fluids viscosity increased as it gets thinner or is it thicker? I thought thinner, therefore wouldnt increased viscosity occur at higher temps?



Precisely what i was thinking...

Viscosity is a measure of the friction of the fluid
Lower friction means lower viscosity like water
more friction means higher viscosity like oil

 

[CONNOR BREWARE]

Hey Punkin any chance I can get some more pics on the weldless fitting you have on the mash tun? I'm using a 100lt esky and its a bit dodgy at the moment because of the size of the hole. You may just have done what I'm trying to get sorted out, I leak a bit.

If its too much of a pain in the arse to take pic no worries.

cheers

Ciro

 

[bignath]

Viscosity is a measure of the friction of the fluid
Lower friction means lower viscosity like water
more friction means higher viscosity like oil

Ahh, thanks db, i had it the wrong way 'round.

I know higher temps make runnings thinner and easier to extract, i just had the terminology backwards.....

Cheers,
Nath

 

[browndog]

As you are not mashing 100kg of grain and taking an hour or two to sparge, the answer to your question is two words "bugger all". the worst that will happen is that by not hitting 78C you may not extrast the full potential of the sugars from your wort due to the sparge water not being hot enough. All the hoo har about stopping the enzyme process bang on you scheduled mash completion is just that, hoo har. It may be a concern for big breweries but for home brewers doing single or double batches it means nothing, after all, how many times have you heard it said here most of the conversion is done in the first 20mins of the mash?

 

[punkin]

Hey Punkin any chance I can get some more pics on the weldless fitting you have on the mash tun? I'm using a 100lt esky and its a bit dodgy at the moment because of the size of the hole. You may just have done what I'm trying to get sorted out, I leak a bit.

If its too much of a pain in the arse to take pic no worries.

cheers

Ciro

Sure mate.

I just went to the engineering supply shop with a probe and got them to put some bits together. I wish i had gone for a 3/4 piece on allthread rather than half inch as the fukin plug would not fit inside the threaded section, which made putting it together a brain hurting hassle.
Other than that it is a 1/4" brass compression fitting with brass olve on a series of reducers to get up to a reasonable size. Two backing nuts and a piece of insertion rubber cut into a washer on the inside. I just didn't have a piece of silicon thick enough for a gasket at the time.







If you want pics of anything in particular (save pulling it out) i'm happy to take them.

 

[CONNOR BREWARE]

Sure mate.

I just went to the engineering supply shop with a probe and got them to put some bits together. I wish i had gone for a 3/4 piece on allthread rather than half inch as the fukin plug would not fit inside the threaded section, which made putting it together a brain hurting hassle.
Other than that it is a 1/4" brass compression fitting with brass olve on a series of reducers to get up to a reasonable size. Two backing nuts and a piece of insertion rubber cut into a washer on the inside. I just didn't have a piece of silicon thick enough for a gasket at the time.

View attachment 55277

View attachment 55278

View attachment 55279

If you want pics of anything in particular (save pulling it out) i'm happy to take them.

Cheers mate, good to see its not just myself had issues with the bugger. I'll have to bugger around with some 3/4 probably.
actually come to think of it I think big nath uses one of these or used to I might see what he used as a weldlessfittings between the ball valve and his manifold.

Ciro

 

[punkin]

It doesn't leak or anything, just that i forgot to put the washer in first before i did it all up, and then i couldn't get it back to bits and then i forgot to thread certain bits in before assy and to do it up with some bits on the inside of the esky and yadda yadda.

if the probe plug had fit through the allthread it would have been a piece of piss.