Water For American Pale Ale?

[Bribie G]

I'm doing a batch of APA - wasn't a real fan until I tried some excellent ones at BABBs comp so I'm giving one a bash.
Running up a batch of RO water now and wondering what I need to pimp it up with - suggest half a tsp Calcium Sulphate, quarter Magnesium Sulphate? (33L strike volume) - I'm basing that on it being hop driven, any advice appreciated.

 

[Kieren]

What's your source water?

 

[marksfish]

cal. sulphate 50-75 ppm whiich would be around 5 to 7 grams and around a quarter of that for mag. you may need to check this as the ppm is for melbourne water which is pretty soft.

 

[jbirbeck]

I'm doing a batch of APA - wasn't a real fan until I tried some excellent ones at BABBs comp so I'm giving one a bash.
Running up a batch of RO water now and wondering what I need to pimp it up with - suggest half a tsp Calcium Sulphate, quarter Magnesium Sulphate? (33L strike volume) - I'm basing that on it being hop driven, any advice appreciated.

without beersmith up and running and my water chemistry being a touch ordinary....thats going to add a lot of sulphates and really make the hops stand out. Question would be whether you'd get enough calcium in there (I suspect it will be too low) and if there would be sufficient other minerals to do the things they need to do. Ph may be a bit off too depending on your grain bill...

one thing about great APA's over ordinary one's is balance and too many people forget that. yes its about the hops but it can't only be about hops. You can go nuts on hops but if you don't have the malt flavour and richness, toastiness to back it up water chemistry won't help. Yes water chemistry may make a very good recipe a great beer but it won't make an ordinary recipe any better.

What is your recipe? colour?

 

[Bribie G]

What's your source water?

H2O :icon_cheers: - I'm using my new reverse osmosis bling I got from GB so it's basically the same as distilled. Yup I'll up the calcium, but go just the slightest Mg. I remember Fourstar on another thread recently who reckoned that for most brews there is a fair bit on Mg supplied by the malt itself.

21L batch (for one keg) Grain bill is bog simple: 5000 BB Ale, 100 med crystal and 200 carapils. Not a rice or a sugaz in sight - Hops 20 Galena 60 mins, 20 Cascade 20 min, 20 Cascade 5 min.

BS says 13.4 EBC, 37.5 IBU.

Off topic, I know I found out the answer earlier this year, but Beersmith doesn't seem to list US-05 for some reason. I got a 'fix' but my computer died and when I reinstalled, I'd lost my modifications such as Thomas Fawcett, Barrett Burston etc. I've got those back again, but can't find anything for US-05 which I can add manually of course but wondering if anyone had a beersmith file with it in. Cheers.

(edited)

 

[Kieren]

Assuming beer EBC around 15 and target residual is 0 then I would just add 3g os CaSO4 an 2g CaCl2 per 20L added to the kettle.

 

[bconnery]

H2O :icon_cheers: - I'm using my new reverse osmosis bling I got from GB so it's basically the same as distilled. Yup I'll up the calcium, but go just the slightest Mg. I remember Fourstar on another thread recently who reckoned that for most brews there is a fair bit on Mg supplied by the malt itself.

21L batch (for one keg) Grain bill is bog simple: 5000 BB Ale, 100 med crystal and 200 carapils. Not a rice or a sugaz in sight - Hops 20 Galena 60 mins, 20 Cascade 20 min, 20 Cascade 5 min.

BS says 13.4 EBC, 37.5 IBU.

Off topic, I know I found out the answer earlier this year, but Beersmith doesn't seem to list US-05 for some reason. I got a 'fix' but my computer died and when I reinstalled, I'd lost my modifications such as Thomas Fawcett, Barrett Burston etc. I've got those back again, but can't find anything for US-05 which I can add manually of course but wondering if anyone had a beersmith file with it in. Cheers.

(edited)

Might be worth having a play with the water additions in beersmith if you haven't already. Pick a water from a US city in an area known for hoppy beers perhaps...

Here's the yeast file from mine...

View attachment Yeast.bsm

 

[jbirbeck]

add some baking soda as well to adjust the ph to the range you want for that colour.

And use more hops...1g/l isn't going to get you where you want to be.

While I like the recipe, for balance and to get the right sort of flavours for an APA I think you need malt focussed grains (a touch of munich to support the ale, and caramunich for depth are good starts, caraamber too) not standard crystals and not carapils. Amber may work in light doses. But that may be a taste thing, any chance you have found a nice recipe from the beers you liked at BABBS...just my thoughts as an overly picky APA drinker.

 

[glaab]

didn't you used to dive for the shotgun at any mention of "C" hops?
I knew you'd see the light eventually :icon_cheers:

 

[MarkBastard]

Why not give regular water a go first Bribie? The last APA I did was fanstastic using unmodified water. Ask argon about it, great recipe (LCPA clone)

 

[sinkas]

listen to the brewing network shop on IIPA's, and on the waterchem

 

[Bribie G]

Wow thanks for the tips.

In the spec malts I only have Med Xtal, Melanoidin, Carared, BB Caramalt, Caraaroma and some choc chit, and forget about the Carapils which was just for foaming purposes. I'd left the munich out of my last order but will get some in with my next lot of base malt, too late for this batch.

Thanks for the file Ben, again - IIRC you helped me out with that in March whenever. Yes I'll up the additions to 30, 30 and 30 and probably 20 dry hop as well. The c-hops sort of snuck up on me, and when I had a pint of Geronimo at the International Hotel I thought "mm C hops" argghhh my tastebuds have been hijacked

Might go 1/4 town water just to add in any trace elements that might be missing, Nev who supplied the unit says he often gets good results using half and half depending on style.

 

[jbirbeck]

Wow thanks for the tips.

In the spec malts I only have Med Xtal, Melanoidin, Carared, BB Caramalt, Caraaroma and some choc chit, and forget about the Carapils which was just for foaming purposes. I'd left the munich out of my last order but will get some in with my next lot of base malt, too late for this batch.

my vote would be for malnoidin to get depth of malt flavour and a touch of caraaroma. One thing I think too many people do to APA's is go nuts on crystals. the late hops add a fruity sweet flavour that can throw the lot out of balance. need some savoury malt to support the sweet bitter hops IMHO.

 

[[email protected]]

I think standard tap water here in the SEQ generally produces a reasonable pale ale. I generally only use RO for lagers etc.

But if you want to play with profiles Mosher's are a good starting point - Tasty McDole uses the Ideal Pale Ale for his APAs and IPAs.

Moshers 'Ideal Pale Ale". 1 gram baking soda, 1 gram canning salt, 3.5 grams Epsom salt, 9 grams gypsum. Ca=111, SO4=337, Mg=18, Na=35, Cl=32, CO3=38, Hardness=352, Alkalinity=31.

More details and other profiles of his are here. http://brewery.org/library/wchmprimer.html

I generally also use Horizon or a low co-humulone hop for APAs to give a smooth bitterness compared to Galena. I agree with Rooting Kings in that some munich is needed (5-10%) to add some complexity.

 

[Fourstar]

Love the ABC podcasts. For me its pretty much podcast and mp3 all the way now. Seldom listen tot he radio. The DJ's just S&%@ me right off. Especially the "breakfast crews".

Maybe I'm getting old.

Dont complicate it, It doesnt need to be a plethora of salts if using RO water. Simply boost the calcium and suflate. As you already know Bribie, i like my 2:1 ratio SO4 to Cl.

6g CaSO4
3gCaCl2

if you really want some Mg go 2-3g, IMO The 6g/3g works well for APA's and for IPA's its just as good. :icon_cheers:

 

[eamonnfoley]

A good profile I use for a APA is:

71 Ca
0 Mg
0 Na
56 SO4
48 Cl
30 HCO3

medium softish with a slide edge to sulfates, but fairly balanced. you need CaCl, CaSO4, and CaC03. If you want sharper bitterness bump up the gypsum a tad. But you want the APA to be supremely drinkable with some balance so dont go overboard.

 

[Bribie G]

Thanks Guys, final attempt (doughing in shortly as I've overshot the strike temp and it needs to cool down from 72 )

Water:

Fourstar's suggestion but put in a tad Mg

Recipe:

5000 BB Ale
150 Melanoidin
100 Caraaroma

65.5 degrees 60 mins

25 Columbus 60 mins (slightly less co humulone than Galena but that citrus character)
30 Cascade 20 mins
30 Cascade 5 mins
20 Cascade dry after 3 days

US-05 pitch both sides of repack - rehydrated

18 degrees

:icon_drunk:

 

[manticle]

I've been using a 50/50 ratio of CasO4: CaCl2 to both mash and boil for an APA I'm pretty happy with (been using that amount for pretty much every beer actually). My water is melbourne tap. Have noticed recently that adding a touch of sodium Chloride and a pinch of magnesium sulphate has made the salts too noticeable evn though I enjoy the finish and hop brightening. Might work differently with RO water though.

Not sure I'd add bicarb - every source I've read suggests carbonates only for dark beers rather than light.

I brewed decent beers without adjusting mash pH so my levels are purely for me to see if there's a flavour difference (and there is) but I don't want to overdo it.

Also pretty happy with my hopbursted APA which just uses pale malt and medium crystal. Plenty of malt and toffee going on in there. Not saying I wouldn't try one out with munich or vienna one day - just that straight crystal can give a good result in my experience. Best thing I've learnt about brewing APAs though (I used to be a bit like bribie and avoid brewing them till I tasted some crackers) is that they don't have to be cloudy. For a while I thought loads of hops equalled cloudy but mine are coming up clear as a bell with no filtering etc.

Try breaking your hop additions from 30 up into small frequent amounts. Gives a multilayering to the hop profile (eg every 5 minutes pu a bit in) if you can be bothered hanging round the kettle for 30 mins.

 

[schooey]

3g CaCl & 3g CaSO4 to the mash and 3g CASO4 to the kettle.... works for me

edit: If you have some Zinc, put a poofteenth in the mash also

 

[AndrewQLD]

Am I reading this wrong? Your going to use RO water, yes? That means your starting out with water devoid of ions.
I don't think 6g CaSO4 3gCaCl2 is going to cut the mustard.
If your using RO water you need to completely build your water chemistry from the bottom up.
The additions suggested above will give you a water profile like this, I can't see that being much use for anything.

Calcium: 117.1 ppm

Sulfate: 176.9 ppm
Magnesium: 0.0 ppm
Chloride: 75.9 ppm
Sodium: 0.0 ppm
Bicarbonate: 0.0 ppm

This is a typical water profile from Chicago IL according to Beersmith, there' a huge difference.

Calcium: 34.0 ppm
Sulfate: 25.0 ppm
Magnesium: 11.0 ppm
Chloride: 11.0 ppm
Sodium: 6.0 ppm
Bicarbonate: 106.0 ppm

Of course I'm no water expert so I'll throw this out there for comments.

Andrew