Water For American Pale Ale?

[manticle]

^ that's why I normally stay out of water chemistry threads. Too much going on that I know too little about. I was aware that RO water would strip the profile right back but don't know enough to advise how to build it back up again.

 

[Fourstar]

as bribie noted, trace elements should be added back but as for Carbonates and Sodium... not required for this style. As for Mg, ive been led to believe you get plenty from your grist, add a touch of epsom if you feel so inclined but i wouldnt be looking at anything close to a tsp. At the end of the day i'd simply add a few L of tap water to give you some trace elements but thats about it.

 

[AndrewQLD]

as bribie noted, trace elements should be added back but as for Carbonates and Sodium... not required for this style. As for Mg, ive been led to believe you get plenty from your grist, add a touch of epsom if you feel so inclined but i wouldnt be looking at anything close to a tsp. At the end of the day i'd simply add a few L of tap water to give you some trace elements but thats about it.

I would say your right, when using normal tap water already containing these ions, but I think your wrong in this case.

 

[AndrewQLD]

After having a look in the water profiler here's what I came up with for RO water additions to get reasonably close to the Chicargo water profile, remember that profiles from different areas will require some quite drastic salt additions to get close compared to this.

Calcium: 28.3 ppm
Sulfate: 30.8 ppm
Magnesium: 7.8 ppm
Chloride: 28.6 ppm
Sodium: 10.4 ppm
Bicarbonate: 31.5 ppm
PH: 7.0
Water Additions Needed
Gypsum: 0.0 gm
Baking Soda: 0.0 gm
Salt: 0.5 gm
Chalk: 1.0 gm
Epsom Salt: 1.5 gm
Calcium Chloride: 0.5 gm

This is the Water profile of Chicago IL
Calcium: 34.0 ppm
Sulfate: 25.0 ppm
Magnesium: 11.0 ppm
Chloride: 11.0 ppm
Sodium: 6.0 ppm
Bicarbonate: 106.0 ppm

Obviously a little more tweaking is required to get it closer, but the beauty of using RO water is that you can really target into a specific regions water profile very accurately.

Andrew


PS. This is based on 19 lt and will change as per your volumes
PSS. Please understand that my post is based on my understanding from reading I have done, I'm not a Chemist, please feel free to shoot me down if I am wrong.

 

[brando]

BribieG is using RO water, which I understand is close to distilled water.

The 4 part waterganza series on the BN's 'Brewstrong" talks about water chemistry, with examples based on distilled water.

I recommend setting aside a couple of hours to listen to this if you haven't done so already BribieG. Has helped my understanding alot.

Having said that, I'm not keen to suggest anything due to lack of experience on water chemistry, and the fact that everyone seems to have a different opinion/understanding.

 

[sama]

+1 Andrew qld....Id play around with the brissy brewers nomograph or the palmer spreadsheet etc.determine your malt bills srm, adjust salts to get yaself in that magic 5ish ph ,bicarbonate level of say 100 ,with at least 50ppm calcium and the chloride to sulphate ratio desired(depending wether your leaning to malty or crisp and hoppy. Id look for an even balanced chloride to sulphate ratio cause i like a balnced malt to hop beer flavor. Those podcasts are good if ya can find the time to listen to em,along with palmers book. (good to listen to on the train etc).

 

[felten]

Tasty mcdole is pretty well known for using RO water exclusively and I think there is a lot of info out on the web on what profile he uses, a quick google gives me this http://terrencetheblack.com/forum/viewtopi...f=7&t=14140

no time to search anymore, as I'm resting a decoction atm @_@

 

[AndrewQLD]

I should point out that I wasn't trying to suggest one particular water profile over another, just that you shouldn't use RO water and just chuck in a few grams of this or that based on what you did using tap water, it will give a completely different water profile than what ou get using tap water.

 

[Dazza_devil]

When attempting to brew an APA and using a USA city water profile, is it safe to assume that American Breweries don't use any water additives?

 

[eamonnfoley]

Water varies all over the USA as it does here. I've read an american pale ale water profile should be like that of a british pale ale but softer.
I wouldnt use salts unless you understand water chemistry enough - you may end up doing more damage than its worth. If your taking a stab in the dark, most you should do is go 50% RO 50% filtered tap, then add some Gypsum.

 

[Fourstar]

I should point out that I wasn't trying to suggest one particular water profile over another, just that you shouldn't use RO water and just chuck in a few grams of this or that based on what you did using tap water, it will give a completely different water profile than what ou get using tap water.

Hi Andrew,

I am basing my assumpions for Bribie on the techniquies i currently employ to water thats has a marginal mineral concentration already. Have you seen the water reports for Mebournes water? Everything is 7ppm or less except for carbonates which sits around 15~. Thats about as devoid of minerals/close to RO water as you are going to get.

If you are brewing a pale ale with no acidic malts, there is no reason why you should be adding alkalinity in the form of (bi)carbonates. Its just not required and its possible you will stuff your mash if there is not enough hardness to buffer it.

As i had already noted which you may have missed, adding a few L back of your base tap water unadulterated (carbon filtered if you are so inclined), 2-5L should suffice to give you some trace under 5ppm, which is all that you would need. There is no requirement for you to get your chalk or sodium bicarbonate out for this style of beer. Infact some people will tell you not to use them, ever. Yes, even with dark beers but i'll leave that to thirstyboy to cover if he feels its necessary.

If youre really worried, some yeast nutrient wouldnt go astray as an added safety net for yeast health.

 

[Bribie G]

I'm downloading the BN shows now and listen on train over the weekend :icon_cheers: Mash went well and extremely good break and compact cold break layer. Hit gravities ok, now for the fermentation. Yes I'll get a pack of yeast nutrient from CB next order as insurance policy.

I seriously wouldn't bother with RO if I lived in Melbourne, the areas of Sydney serviced by the Warragamba dam, Sunshine Coast or Bundberg - you guys have nectar on tap there and I'd only be removing the chlorine, but the Bribie Stuff (actually improved a fair bit since the Water Grid was completed) is a real handicap.

 

[felten]

you might find you have to listen the the series two or three times before it makes sense, like everything they do, the info is there but it takes them a while to get to it

 

[sama]

I'm downloading the BN shows now and listen on train over the weekend :icon_cheers:

thats the go mate.Great info..also,out of curiosity,what is wrong with your tap water or is a report unobtainable?

 

[AndrewQLD]

Hi Andrew,

I am basing my assumpions for Bribie on the techniquies i currently employ to water thats has a marginal mineral concentration already. Have you seen the water reports for Mebournes water? Everything is 7ppm or less except for carbonates which sits around 15~. Thats about as devoid of minerals/close to RO water as you are going to get.

If you are brewing a pale ale with no acidic malts, there is no reason why you should be adding alkalinity in the form of (bi)carbonates. Its just not required and its possible you will stuff your mash if there is not enough hardness to buffer it.

As i had already noted which you may have missed, adding a few L back of your base tap water unadulterated (carbon filtered if you are so inclined), 2-5L should suffice to give you some trace under 5ppm, which is all that you would need. There is no requirement for you to get your chalk or sodium bicarbonate out for this style of beer. Infact some people will tell you not to use them, ever. Yes, even with dark beers but i'll leave that to thirstyboy to cover if he feels its necessary.

If youre really worried, some yeast nutrient wouldnt go astray as an added safety net for yeast health.

Fair enough, however Melbourne water does contain ions and not just some of them but all of them, RO water doesn't to any quantifiable amount. Adding the salts you suggested to Melbourne water may well be perfect but it will give a totally different overall profile to RO water. Even allowing for the minor levels in Melbourne water is not the same as nil levels in RO water.

Bribie asked the question "I'm doing a batch of APA and using RO water, what do I need to pimp it up",
he didn't ask " I am doing a batch of APA using Melbourne water what do I need to pimp it up"
Giving advice to use the same water additions as you use isn't really going to give him the same results you get.
That's what I was trying to get at.
I'm not having a pick Fourstar but I don't think near enough close enough will cut it here.

Bribie I use the Ezy water calculator V2 pretty easy to use and if you continue to use RO water it will help greatly.
You can download it here

Andrew

 

[razz]

Andrew that program would have to be the easiest one of seen yet.
Although I do like the BABBS Nomograph.

 

[manticle]

Easy (ez ha ) except for the annoying insistence on imperial units that so many online spreadsheets seem to insist on. Most of the world is metric so why can't they at least offer both choices? Beer recipator.org an American recipe development software spreadsheet (and carbonation cals, hydrometer correction calc etc) offers the user a choice of units. Makes life so much easier.


Just edited to suggest I am a tit. See below.

 

[AndrewQLD]

Easy (ez ha ) except for the annoying insistence on imperial units that so many online spreadsheets seem to insist on. Most of the world is metric so why can't they at least offer both choices? Beer recipator.org an American recipe development software spreadsheet (and carbonation cals, hydrometer correction calc etc) offers the user a choice of units. Makes life so much easier.

There is a metric version download right under that annoying imperial one Manticle.

Andrew

 

[manticle]

Damn my eyes. I downloaded the imperial and stuffed around for thirty minutes with online converters to see if my current additions made sense.

I take back every bad thing I ever said about ez.

 

[Fourstar]

Bribie asked the question "I'm doing a batch of APA and using RO water, what do I need to pimp it up",
he didn't ask " I am doing a batch of APA using Melbourne water what do I need to pimp it up"
Giving advice to use the same water additions as you use isn't really going to give him the same results you get.
That's what I was trying to get at.
I'm not having a pick Fourstar but I don't think near enough close enough will cut it here.

So as i noted, adding back several L of base water isnt going to cut it for use with the RO water? say 10% of the final volume?