water - a dirty secret?

[Parks]

I reckon the No. 1 thing with your town water is getting rid of the Chlorine and Chloramine. Most of the city water reports I've seen are pretty OK for mineral content, certainly good enough not to worry about it in your early days of all grain brewing.

I've spent the last 6 ish months getting my head around the water chemistry. It's not for the faint hearted but when striving for perfection it's definitely required.

 

[GABBA110360]

I'm only new to brewing.
about 14 months but from day dot I've used a .45 micron water filter for anything to go into my beer.
there absolutely nothing wrong with the tap water here I just want to purest water I can for my beer.
a cartridge lasts 6 months till it slows normally
ken

 

[Byran]

That Sydney water analysis is great it shows the exact particulates and salts in the water from which ever treatment plant it comes from. I seem to be using the prospect plant in my area and the water is very soft so is ok for pilsners as is. The Monochloramine smell seems to leave the brew in the heating process but apparently it does not leave the water even with filtration or boiling. http://www.epa.gov/ogwdw/disinfection/chloramine/pdfs/Q29.pdf

My understanding is that you add Calcium sulfate to accent flavours for hops and bitter beers, and calcium carbonates for dark beers to help raise the PH from the acidic dark grains.
And more calcium is good for yeast health.
The new update on beersmith allows you to put in your home water profile in PPM for each salt, then it calculates the addition amount for you to achieve the desired water hardness or profile.
Pretty bloody good if you can be arsed learning how to use it.

 

[Pickaxe]

Ez water calc ad mentioned is great.
Found my calcium levels and sulphate levels are low, ph high, from water profile from supplier and other sources. Will test and alter mash ph, got some calcium chloride and gypsum on order, lactic acid too. Brew day next week should prove interesting. Looking fwd to seeing results to flavour and eff.

 

[Pickaxe]

Might try beersmith water profile if I start to level out what is going on, but ez water calculator is nice and simple, keeps things less complicated in my view, don't want beersmith getting more complicated than it is already.

 

[Byran]

I just went through the whole water tool on beersmith because I had to reinstall it and it reset all my info. It seems really well setup , you just put in the PPM for each mineral in your home water( based on info from the suppliers)
then you can choose a water profile that you would like to replicate, there is a long list. And it calculates the best additions for your batch .
And you can save the settings for a quick recipe and it adds the additions for you. Wow its easy to use.

 

[Pickaxe]

Sounds good. Might have to give it a go.

 

[Bizier]

Seriously, the beersmith water tool is as simple as it gets for calculating mineral additions and it shows how much your base water can be ABOVE your target profile.

*cough* Perth and chlorides

 

[mackayboi]

I like to run my water (rain water or city connected supply) through a water filter.
If the taste of the water is pleasant, then it would probably be good for the brew.

Anyone had experience (bad or good) of the use of rain water?

 

[wereprawn]

I like to run my water (rain water or city connected supply) through a water filter.
If the taste of the water is pleasant, then it would probably be good for the brew.

Anyone had experience (bad or good) of the use of rain water?

No. But I am planning to collect some rainwater in the wet this year. Heard good reports about it's use.

 

[Dan2]

I like to run my water (rain water or city connected supply) through a water filter.
If the taste of the water is pleasant, then it would probably be good for the brew.

Anyone had experience (bad or good) of the use of rain water?

I use it (filtered). And know others who do. Pretty much a blank canvas so you can treat it as RO and build your own profile

 

[mackayboi]

It's interesting, on face value, one would think rain water would be the best for home brew. No chemicals / additives and water as pure as it probably could get, straight from the clouds.

It is only after reading this thread that there maybe more to water, especially with water hardness, minerals and ions just to name a few.

My question is this, does the type of water make a significant difference to the quality of the end product? Or is it more to replicate the flavor in a name brand beer in question?

 

[manticle]

Depends on the water in question. Can make a massive difference, can just make a small difference. Definitely makes a difference of one sort or another though.

 

[jotaigna]

I studied this whole water thing mainly to hit correct pH levels for my mash and achieve proper conversion.
I use palmer's EZ water calculator which enables me to achive this and after a few tries, I've got the hang of it.

In a way, this is still my approach: add just enough salts to manipulate pH and WALK AWAY!.

Otherwise, buy a pH meter, a chemestry degree and several hours to deconstruct water and rebuild it again and achieve acidity the old fashion way (ie an acid rest).

There is no middle ground IMHO and this clearly divides brewers into two campsroffessor nutheads and "canbebotheredtratingwater"ers.

 

[manticle]

Acid rests aren't that effective unless done for hours as far as I'm aware.

I follow methods quite similar to yours (although it helps understanding what and why) but I think you overstate the complexity of someone filtering their water then adding salts and/or acid. No need for a chemistry degree.

 

[syl]

People using the EZ Water calc, did you just go on the Melbourne water mean levels or actually test for everything?

 

[GalBrew]

People using the EZ Water calc, did you just go on the Melbourne water mean levels or actually test for everything?

I use the EZ calc and go off the mean levels for the water coming from Silvan reservoir, which is what supplies my house.

 

[Pickaxe]

So I've run a couple of brews with Salt adds.
Last brew I could measure the pH, hit 5.4 pH in the Mash with a 7gm add of both CACl and Gypsum to the strike water.
This is Noosa water in case anyone local is interested.

This was in a basic Aussie Ale.
23L
4.5 kg Pale Malt BB
.25kg Carared
(forgot to order wheat malt this brew - derp)

7gm of each was added to 25L strike water, 3gm of each added to sparge water @ 11.5L.

Added 1/4kg dex, and Hopped with POR pellets at 60 min. Really basic recipe.

Will post tasting results in a few weeks. Have a previous brew I added 5gm of each to strike, 2.5gm of each to sparge, basic ale, but hopped with Motueka @ 60, 20, 15 & 0 : 30, 20, 20, 20. Should show me the effect on hop prescence, flavour etc.

May have improved my efficiency - which is up to a solid 70%, up from 60 to 65% at best, however, this could be down to me getting more experienced with my setup and processes now. Makes it hard to know if hitting my numbers was helped by the salt additions, but i guess its all part of getting a best practice regime happening.

 

[manticle]

CaCl2 or dr smurto will get you.

 

[Pickaxe]

Does Dr smurto look anything like Walt?
******* chem Nazi.

 

[jotaigna]

Acid rests aren't that effective unless done for hours as far as I'm aware.

I follow methods quite similar to yours (although it helps understanding what and why) but I think you overstate the complexity of someone filtering their water then adding salts and/or acid. No need for a chemistry degree.

Yes I didn't express myself well.
All I meant to say is that i think the learning curve is steeper for water chem than for other brewing aspects, and perhaps that's why there is less activity in the forum than for other topics as per op's question.

Syl. When I started adding salts I measured with ph strips. After a couple of goes it was clear than calculations land you pretty much where you want and now I don't. I get about 75% efficiency for a 1.048og.

 

[brentice]

Im not a big fan of water. After all fish fark in it....True story

 

[syl]

I am starting to take it on board now, love the PDF linked on page 1.

Going to do a water test and have a water tester, some pH stabiliser, calcium chloride and calcium sulphate on order.

Will do my first adjusting on this weekend's brew!

 

[hsb]

On the upside, I just did a quick google, and found that Sydney Water has released a lot more info than they had last time I looked - http://www.sydneywater.com.au/SW/water-the-environment/how-we-manage-sydney-s-water/waterquality/typical-drinking-water-analysis/index.htm

This has me confused. It says

Sydney and eastern suburbs, south to the Georges River - Can be supplied from Prospect and/or Sydney Desalination Plant at Kurnell

but the supplied link is to 'Potts Hill'.

When I open the Potts Hill link, the PDF Title says 'Water analysis: North Richmond water supply system' but the text says 'Water analysis: Potts Hill water supply system' ???

Other areas have links to Prospect North, South and East. Which one is the right one?

I'd just got to thinking about water when I ended up taking a bit of a break from brewing.
There's a lot to digest in making beer and for me, water was bottom of that list but now I'm there, back at the bottom of the list, confused as ever.

 

[Pickaxe]

From what I understand, Calcium Chloride and Calcium Sulphate are pH stabilisers (for alkaline waters). What stabiliser are you referring to?

 

[syl]

From what I understand, Calcium Chloride and Calcium Sulphate are pH stabilisers (for alkaline waters). What stabiliser are you referring to?

pH buffer. As per pale beers using Melbourne water requiring further pH modifications.

 

[Pickaxe]

This has me confused. It says
but the the supplied link is to 'Potts Hill'.

When I open the Potts Hill link, the PDF Title says 'Water analysis: North Richmond water supply system'. ???

Other areas have links to Prospect North, South and East. Which one is the right one?

If you need to, contact your water supplier. Other thing is to see if there's a marked difference in the zones' water profiles, and whether you need to know precisely which area you're in. The differences might be minor enough not to worry too much.

 

[hsb]

I emailed them to confirm. Water is complex enough. I'd rather get the information correct from source, than have to deduce it from a variety of reports where I'm not certain what is the right one.
You're probably right, that there is not going to be enough of a difference to worry, but might as well start well, even if I still make a mess of it.

My tentative first steps were in line with previously posted, but can't say I'd noticed strikingly different results, too many variables maybe.

Calcium sulfate to accent flavours for hops and bitter beers, and calcium carbonates for dark beers to help raise the PH from the acidic dark grains

 

[manticle]

Won't be strikingly different unless your water is awful (like those poor WA guys). With good starting water, it's a tweak, a bit of polish, a little bit of garnish to set it all off just so.

With salts it is akin to seasoning a meal, with acid adjustments and calcium salts you are helping the yeast and enzymes. Give them a touch of love.

 

[hsb]

Nicely put manticle. My first forays have been tentative, and I don't doubt that there is much benefit to be had. The OPs point is a good one and, for me at least, I think the too hard/complex explanation is definitely the one. There's a lot to absorb with water chemistry and because we all have different base profiles, no 'one size fits all' solution that you can look to with most other aspects of brewing.

We almost need 'Water' subforums centred around people with the same water profiles, then people can share their experiences, what works/what doesn't, in some kind of meaningful way. At the moment it's too varied. It can be hard to know if someone is using rainwater or filtered water or if they have high local this mineral etc.. to get some basic advice to get started and begin experimenting in the same way you might do using different hopping techniques or new mashing schedules etc.