water - a dirty secret?

[syl]

Won't be strikingly different unless your water is awful (like those poor WA guys). With good starting water, it's a tweak, a bit of polish, a little bit of garnish to set it all off just so.

With salts it is akin to seasoning a meal, with acid adjustments and calcium salts you are helping the yeast and enzymes. Give them a touch of love.

So Brunswick Water - Calcium and stabiliser? For the doctors golden ale!

 

[manticle]

Depends on the beer. Calcium sulphate and calcium Chloride are all I use. I presume you mean 5.2 stabiliser from Fivestar? Not my bag, never used it, unsure what's in it besides generic mix of phosphates etc.

Sulphate to brighten hops, chloride to accentuate malt, no sulphate in dark beers. Usually 4g total to mash and 4 to boil, with many beers getting an even split unless particularly hoppy or particularly malty - then I favour one or the other. I cold steep dark grains when there is a high percentage in the grist so I don't worry about low pH in that circumstance and extra pale beers get a touch of lactic or phosphoric acid.

 

[Pickaxe]

I'm tasting a 2 week bottled motueka hopped ale that I added salts to. Huge difference in the clarity and definition of flavors. Hops and malt more pronounced and clear. Real clarity of flavor. Quite a dramatic difference for me. A sharpness or edge to the hops I haven't had, and the malt flavor is more forward. Less muddy than it was with salt additions. Clarity is the best word for it.

For me, is a dramatic change. Like finings for the palette. Highly recommend.

 

[Pickaxe]

Sorry I meant, less muddy than it was WITHOUT salt additions...

 

[Pickaxe]

Cold steeping dark grains? What do you mean by that manticle? Curious...

 

[manticle]

Dark grains drop mash pH. Lots of dark grains (say in a stout) potentially push pH lower than desired.

Lots of dark/roast in a mash can supposedly lead to harsh, unpleasant roast characters.

You will often see CaCO3 (calcium carbonate or chalk) recommended as an addition to drive pH back up in these circumstances. I won't go into the twenty reasons why I think adding carbonates makes no sense but if you are of the opinion that adding them is a bad idea but want to prevent mash pH dropping too low, you can do add the roast to the last ten minutes of the mash. Your pH through the main mash will be set, add salts as normal, get smooth instead of harsh.

However, I like to extract as much flavour as I can from the roast so I add the cracked roast grains to a pot of cold water, stir till hydrated, cover and refrigerate for 12-24 hours. I then bring up to approximate mash temperatures and add to the last 10 minutes of the mash. Full flavoured, no need to worry about pH being affected by roast, no need to add stupid chalk.

Only do this for black or dark brown beers. My dark mild has 130g of roast in a single batch - it gets no separate steeping step.

 

[huhjhcjh]

nice thread, i think that the water topic should going on, i want to read more discussion

 

[Tex083]

I have tried to get a grip of water chemistry and spoken to a few people about what to add. I now have removed Calcium Carbonate from any addition, one brewer I spoke to said mash efficiency is better on the acidic side of 5.2 rather than the alkaline side.
I now use the same addition for all beers, light, amber or dark and will see how it goes. As it's been said before a mix of Calcium Sulphate and Calcium Chloride depending on flavour.
Salts to the boil is also a new thing I am trying as most of that calcium remains in the mash tun you can/should add it back to the boil. I have for my last APA and I'm waiting for it to finish fermenting to taste it.

 

[Pickaxe]

The same addition will not suit all beers, as grain bill effects ph. From what I understand, desired mash ph is 5.2-5.4 and adjusted for mash temp will read as 5.4-5.6. Water hardness is another thing I don't really understand, but Brun water page explains a lot, im still getting my head around it. It's like another recipe process, but worth it. Dark beers I dont make, but I know there's other factors to consider with them.
My understanding:
Sulphate for hops
Calcium for malt
Sulphate to calcium should balance.
Salt adds to balance ph should relate to grain bill as darker malts are different to light malts.
Knowing your base water profile is a must.
Ph should be 5.4-5.6 at mash temp.

That's as far as I've got, and im thinking a one stop solution for all styles might not work for you.

pickaxe

 

[manticle]

Chloride for malt

 

[Adr_0]

Dark grains drop mash pH. Lots of dark grains (say in a stout) potentially push pH lower than desired.

Lots of dark/roast in a mash can supposedly lead to harsh, unpleasant roast characters.

You will often see CaCO3 (calcium carbonate or chalk) recommended as an addition to drive pH back up in these circumstances. I won't go into the twenty reasons why I think adding carbonates makes no sense but if you are of the opinion that adding them is a bad idea but want to prevent mash pH dropping too low, you can do add the roast to the last ten minutes of the mash. Your pH through the main mash will be set, add salts as normal, get smooth instead of harsh.

I've only ever used a touch, but I can see how it would be hard to dissolve in quantities greater than a 'touch'. Further on this, some water (e.g. over most of Belgium and places in England) do show a fair chunk of carbonates in the water, but my understanding is they actually boil this out and let it drop out of suspension - dropping it down quite a lot.

So while we may get all fancy and add carbonate to perfectly match that reported water profile, in a lot of cases the brewery knocks it out before they mash in with the water - speaking confidently for Belgian breweries, and English probably do the same. Interestingly, Burton water is reported as having a frick-ton of Sulphate (600-800ppm) and a lot of sources say a lot of carbonate too (200-300) but Ray Daniels says Burton water has 0 carbonate - is this a practical approach, suggesting they knocked it out of suspension before mash in?

Sulphate is definitely bad for dark, roasty beers as the sharpness comes into those malts - not really what you want. But you still do want Calcium... which leaves you with CaCl or CaCO3.

Brisbane water already has about 100ppm chloride. manticle, any upper limit on chloride for different beer styles?

 

[mabrungard]

I've only ever used a touch, but I can see how it would be hard to dissolve in quantities greater than a 'touch'. Further on this, some water (e.g. over most of Belgium and places in England) do show a fair chunk of carbonates in the water, but my understanding is they actually boil this out and let it drop out of suspension - dropping it down quite a lot.

So while we may get all fancy and add carbonate to perfectly match that reported water profile, in a lot of cases the brewery knocks it out before they mash in with the water - speaking confidently for Belgian breweries, and English probably do the same. Interestingly, Burton water is reported as having a frick-ton of Sulphate (600-800ppm) and a lot of sources say a lot of carbonate too (200-300) but Ray Daniels says Burton water has 0 carbonate - is this a practical approach, suggesting they knocked it out of suspension before mash in?

Sulphate is definitely bad for dark, roasty beers as the sharpness comes into those malts - not really what you want. But you still do want Calcium... which leaves you with CaCl or CaCO3.

Brisbane water already has about 100ppm chloride. manticle, any upper limit on chloride for different beer styles?

With out special measures, chalk is essentially insoluble in water or the mash. It will dissolve, but it takes a long time...far longer than a mashing session.

Ray Daniels is quite wrong about Burton water. It does have significant alkalinity (aka: carbonate or bicarbonate). It is needed in mashing since that water has a large concentration of Ca and Mg that drive the residual alkalinity of the mash very low and the mash pH ends up too low if the alkalinity isn't there. So trying to brew a pale ale with a bunch of gypsum in RO water does not turn out as well as you might hope. RO has very little alkalinity. Using baking soda or lime when you are trying to brew a pale ale with RO water is helpful. By the way, I typically take the sulfate content of my water to 300 ppm for brewing pale ales.

You definitely don't want that high a sulfate level (300 ppm) when brewing a roasty beer, it can clash. I'd say that about 100 ppm is the highest I'd take sulfate in a roasty beer and you would be better off with a slightly lower level in some cases.

100 ppm chloride is getting on up there. I would not try to take that level any higher. In the case of making a high sulfate water for pale ale brewing, the high chloride MIGHT make the resulting beer a little minerally. It may not be that bad, but just recognize that its a possibility.

 

[Adr_0]

With out special measures, chalk is essentially insoluble in water or the mash. It will dissolve, but it takes a long time...far longer than a mashing session.

Ray Daniels is quite wrong about Burton water. It does have significant alkalinity (aka: carbonate or bicarbonate). It is needed in mashing since that water has a large concentration of Ca and Mg that drive the residual alkalinity of the mash very low and the mash pH ends up too low if the alkalinity isn't there. So trying to brew a pale ale with a bunch of gypsum in RO water does not turn out as well as you might hope. RO has very little alkalinity. Using baking soda or lime when you are trying to brew a pale ale with RO water is helpful. By the way, I typically take the sulfate content of my water to 300 ppm for brewing pale ales.

You definitely don't want that high a sulfate level (300 ppm) when brewing a roasty beer, it can clash. I'd say that about 100 ppm is the highest I'd take sulfate in a roasty beer and you would be better off with a slightly lower level in some cases.

100 ppm chloride is getting on up there. I would not try to take that level any higher. In the case of making a high sulfate water for pale ale brewing, the high chloride MIGHT make the resulting beer a little minerally. It may not be that bad, but just recognize that its a possibility.

Thanks Martin, great information as per usual.

I'm a big fan of the 80:20 principle and keeping things simple, and further along that line of thinking I do want to make sure that anything I do adds measurable value or is done for a very good reason.

Sounds as though if I have a lot of roasted malts and I'm concerned about too much bite I have two options:
1) Steep at least some of the roasted malt separately and add late to the mash; or
2) Throw in a touch of NaCO3.

While it may concern me at some point to get from 95% to 98% i.e. worry about calcium carry-over and yeast health, I don't really think I need to be concerned at this point... but as always, happy to be convinced otherwise.

 

[mr_wibble]

Anyone know when you can get a useful water report for under $1000 ?
(Under $100 would be better)

Is it worth testing for minerals in tank water?

I'm not sure I want to know how much of the colourbond is no longer bonding though.

The local pool shop will do the pH for free, maybe I'll just leave it at that.

 

[Dan Pratt]

I spoke to hunter water in Newcastle and for under 150bucks I can get the required minerals tested to be able to then adjust according to style. Where did you get the 1k figure from?


Sent from my iPad using Aussie Home Brewer

 

[Adr_0]

Anyone know when you can get a useful water report for under $1000 ?
(Under $100 would be better)

Is it worth testing for minerals in tank water?

I'm not sure I want to know how much of the colourbond is no longer bonding though.

The local pool shop will do the pH for free, maybe I'll just leave it at that.

search for PETIX or similar marine/aquarium tests for 'general hardness' and 'alkalinity/pH', and if you can, rely on mid-high level for your chloride, sodium and sulphate from your water supply or other people on the forum. should be able to get two kits for a total of $40-50 and you can test on the day or multiple sources.

isn't there a water database somewhere?

 

[black_labb]

I briefly did water additions but stopped when I wasn't noticing significant differences. I've been meaning to get into it since getting pH measurement equipment but the cheapo ph meter I got on ebay wasn't able to be used (the calibration didn't go far enough to get the reading accurate) and the test strips I ordered seem to be for higher pH and not the 4.8-6pH like I ordered and the container is marked, either that or my 100% base malt ale with no water additions and sydneys apparently soft water was reading under 4.8pH as was the tapwater. might give ebay a break next time I decide to get some ph measurement gear.

I agree with the sentiment of not worrying about it until you have ironed out every other element of your brewing procedure (or if you have specific issues with your water source)

 

[Dan2]

Is it worth testing for minerals in tank water?

I'm not sure I want to know how much of the colourbond is no longer bonding though.

The local pool shop will do the pH for free, maybe I'll just leave it at that.

Unless there is heavy mining activity in your area, then you should be able to treat your rain water as RO (no minerals) with pH6
As for the colorbond - Can't give a definitive answer there. I would imagine that a really old roof may give up some zinc or iron over time, but significant enough to get a ppm measure?
I use tank water, run it through a 2 stage particle/carbon filter to remove bird shit and bug piss, then call it RO

 

[pyrosx]

Anyone know when you can get a useful water report for under $1000 ?
(Under $100 would be better)

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=At_home_water_testing

That exact test kit: $20 from the first google link I found.

It's obviously not a full on water analysis... but it feels like a pretty reasonable first step down that path

 

[Camo1234]

You can always get an RO system and always know what your water is.