Vicbrew 2010

[Pennywise]

I just found 3 bottles of the IIPA I thought I had none left of. Faaarrrrkk!!!! Could have sent it off to the Nats after all :angry:

Will have to brew another big IPA now for next year

 

[brendo]

I got an interesting spread of scores as well. Having 2 entries in the stout category, I noticed one judge scored particularly harder than the other 2.

For the body component of my Oatmeal stout, I got a 4.5/5, 4/5 and a 2/5. That's a 40-50% proportional difference for the same component of the same beer.

Now, I'm not being critical of the judging, as taste is subjective, and these guys do a fantastic, and voluntary, job. Just wondering, are the scores prepared in isolation, or is it a collaborative effort?

Typically we judge independently, formulate our opinions and scores and then have a chat - this often revolves around general commentary for the beer and a discussion of score - one to make sure we are in the 7 point spread and the other to try and get some consensus of where it sits and are we being fair. Sometimes the discussion can be pretty robust.

Well at least that is my experience in judging - I am sure it varies depending on who is involved.

Cheers,

Brendo

 

[WarmBeer]

Typically we judge independently, formulate our opinions and scores and then have a chat - this often revolves around general commentary for the beer and a discussion of score - one to make sure we are in the 7 point spread and the other to try and get some consensus of where it sits and are we being fair. Sometimes the discussion can be pretty robust.

Well at least that is my experience in judging - I am sure it varies depending on who is involved.

Cheers,

Brendo

Thanks Brendo. As I said, not being critical, just wondering about the mechanics of it.

A little different to the internal comps we have with BBC, as it's a consensus among all tasters involved.

This is my first comp entry, so will take the advice to heart, and try to come back a little stronger next year.

 

[mxd]

Just wondering, are the scores prepared in isolation, or is it a collaborative effort?

That's a bit of both the scores had to be within a range of 7, an example, each judge does there score, at the "end" they discuss the score, if there within the 7 they may move on, or may do a little adjusting if they feel there needs to be. One of mine had a range from 25 to 32, the others were within 2.5.

 

[The_Duck]

My sheets turned up in the mail yesterday too.

Nearly every comp I have entered (all 5 including internal club comps) I get a score sheet back saying "infection, check sanitation" etc etc.

The odd thing is that most of my brews or at least the ones fermented as ales go thru the same fermenter as it has an immersion heater setup on it for temp control.

That fermenter would have to be one of the cleanest fermenters around. It gets disassembled, washed, rinsed and then filled with milton solution measured out to the drop.. then a few more for good measure. Then left for 12-48 hours. Then emptied and filled with boiling water. Then emptied and selaed or filled immediately with wort for the next batch.

Maybe my tastebuds are fcked but I cannot taste any infection in my brews. Is there any other "flavours" that can be obtained through fermentation of barley, water, hops, yeast that could resemble what judges seem to think is an infection ?


Duck

 

[Stuster]

Nearly every comp I have entered (all 5 including internal club comps) I get a score sheet back saying "infection, check sanitation" etc etc.

Duck, if you are getting this feedback consistently, I'd say it's pretty likely you have a problem. It sounds like you are doing the right thing with your fermenter, but what about the rest of your process? What kind of yeast do you use and how to do you use it? (a starter? how?) What kind of brewer are you and how do you prepare the wort? There are many possible issues which can lead to infections. You need to go through the whole process and make sure it's all up to scratch.

 

[Howlingdog]

Just read through this thread and I ponder this question - do the posters prior to entering a comp pull down a BJCP score sheet of the site and critically score their beer rather than just tasting the beer with a swing here and there? If they did they would surely pick up any faults and have a good idea of how the beer was going to perform. Of course the entered bottle could be totally different from the sample bottle especially if the batch was bottle-conditioned.

When you get your score sheets back you will have your critique in writing rather than relying on a befuddled beery memory of weeks ago.


HD

 

[haysie]

Just read through this thread and I ponder this question - do the posters prior to entering a comp pull down a BJCP score sheet of the site and critically score their beer rather than just tasting the beer with a swing here and there? If they did they would surely pick up any faults and have a good idea of how the beer was going to perform. Of course the entered bottle could be totally different from the sample bottle especially if the batch was bottle-conditioned.

When you get your score sheets back you will have your critique in writing rather than relying on a befuddled beery memory of weeks ago.


HD

Its a pretty good point HD. i generally critique my beer and as sometimes happens you brew as this but it turns out like that, saying that....having a good idea how the beer will perform can be lets say subjective, inexperienced and in the extreme not entered in the style you entered can make a very good beer very average.
Its very disapointing for brewers to score great at one comp with experienced judges then go to another comp and that beer score poorly by inexperienced judges. Thats brewing comps and its very subjective and there seems be a divergence between participants and participation. All in all is it worth it IMO? I would suggest less comps with an immediate focus on state (Vicbrew), geez thats subjective too. All in all perticipation is there,,,,,, so where do we go?

ps. Improve the crazy specialties scenario. Surely Ryes, Belgians, Fruits, Lambics etc etc shouldnt all be thrown in one basket.

 

[BrenosBrews]

Just read through this thread and I ponder this question - do the posters prior to entering a comp pull down a BJCP score sheet of the site and critically score their beer rather than just tasting the beer with a swing here and there? If they did they would surely pick up any faults and have a good idea of how the beer was going to perform. Of course the entered bottle could be totally different from the sample bottle especially if the batch was bottle-conditioned.

When you get your score sheets back you will have your critique in writing rather than relying on a befuddled beery memory of weeks ago.


HD

Yep, I do that with my own beers. Then when I get the score sheets back I read the score sheets while drinking the beer. That's if I have any left. I knew a few of mine wouldn't do so good this year but was pretty happy with the results over all.

I bet I can beat you all for biggest spread; originally it was 42, 30, 30. Altered to 39, 32, 32 to be in 7 points. I think one of the judges was lead by the other lower scoring judge, oh well, it still got 5th.

 

[fcmcg]

I got an interesting spread of scores as well. Having 2 entries in the stout category, I noticed one judge scored particularly harder than the other 2.

For the body component of my Oatmeal stout, I got a 4.5/5, 4/5 and a 2/5. That's a 40-50% proportional difference for the same component of the same beer.

Now, I'm not being critical of the judging, as taste is subjective, and these guys do a fantastic, and voluntary, job. Just wondering, are the scores prepared in isolation, or is it a collaborative effort?

Must have been the oatmeal categpry that caused all the problems.... i Scored 80 with this beer...however...
My beer ( which scored 120 in an internal Westgate comp with 2 BJCP jusges and then took out Westgates Stout Extravaganza Best Stout with 114 ...and then ended up in the AHB AXMAS in July case swap...) came back with comments from one judge saying good oatmeal and the other saying no oatmeal....so i'm guessing i'll take on board their other comments and try and figure out where i went wrong.....hmmmm
Again not being critical , just feeling a tad perplexed.....
Cheers
Ferg

 

[big78sam]

My sheets turned up in the mail yesterday too.

Nearly every comp I have entered (all 5 including internal club comps) I get a score sheet back saying "infection, check sanitation" etc etc.

The odd thing is that most of my brews or at least the ones fermented as ales go thru the same fermenter as it has an immersion heater setup on it for temp control.

That fermenter would have to be one of the cleanest fermenters around. It gets disassembled, washed, rinsed and then filled with milton solution measured out to the drop.. then a few more for good measure. Then left for 12-48 hours. Then emptied and filled with boiling water. Then emptied and selaed or filled immediately with wort for the next batch.

Maybe my tastebuds are fcked but I cannot taste any infection in my brews. Is there any other "flavours" that can be obtained through fermentation of barley, water, hops, yeast that could resemble what judges seem to think is an infection ?


Duck

I'm no expert but I've noticed my beers have a certain "off" flavour to them while in the fermenter. I gave the guys at G&G a taste and they thought it was a mild infection. I had this 3 batches in a row and tipped the first 2. The 3rd I left on the yeast cake for a week or so and the yeast cleaned it up.

I have read about how you beer can take on "house" flavours. I dont think these brews actually were infected, in the end I put it down to a "house" flavour I get with all light beers I make and I just leave it for the yeast to clean up. I recently had the first beer in ages where the yeast didnt clean this up. It was a lager that took some time to fully attenuate and I may even have underpitched so I put that one down to experience.

It might be something completely different for you but FWIW that is just my relative noob experience.

 

[brett mccluskey]

I got an interesting spread of scores as well. Having 2 entries in the stout category, I noticed one judge scored particularly harder than the other 2.

For the body component of my Oatmeal stout, I got a 4.5/5, 4/5 and a 2/5. That's a 40-50% proportional difference for the same component of the same beer.

Now, I'm not being critical of the judging, as taste is subjective, and these guys do a fantastic, and voluntary, job. Just wondering, are the scores prepared in isolation, or is it a collaborative effort?

Each judge SHOULD score in isolation,and always do IMO.The beer is discussed occasionally while being scored,but it's being within 7 points overall that matter to a judge,not what another judge gave some aspect of the beer. After the scores are checked .the beer is discussed then,generally :icon_cheers:

 

[brendo]

My take on it as both a judge and a participant - entering comps can be a bit of a crap shoot influenced by a lot of factors including who is doing the judging, where in the flight it was judged (what came before it - infection or really top beer), pallate fatigue, yadda yadda yadda.

As "fair" as we try to make the process, there is still a fair bit of subjectivity involved. Good brewers will often poll well, but if you check the results across many compa it is not uncommon to see resets bookend a category with both top scores and low scores.

At the end of the day - ask yourself why you are entering. If it is for feedback - great, but take it with a grain of salt and don't be too disheartened. Change things slowly and ask other brewers with experienced palates what they think. Comp feedback is great - but it is only one input point on your way to making a better beer.

@Duck - bring some to the next meeting along with your scoresheets and get some more feedback.

Cheers

Brendo

 

[The_Duck]

Duck, if you are getting this feedback consistently, I'd say it's pretty likely you have a problem. It sounds like you are doing the right thing with your fermenter, but what about the rest of your process? What kind of yeast do you use and how to do you use it? (a starter? how?) What kind of brewer are you and how do you prepare the wort? There are many possible issues which can lead to infections. You need to go through the whole process and make sure it's all up to scratch.

Hi Stuster,

From memory, the particular brew that attracted these recent comments was a BIAB that I had to colour adjust after a few days in the fermenter as it was more a pale ale than an english brown. The colour adjustment was mashed for 30 mins and boiled for 10.

I did a second adjustment using a similar process a few days later.

They are the only things I can think of that are out of whack to my normal process.

Yeast-wise I used a dried yeast that was rehydrated in a container that had been cleaned with boiling water prior to use. Re-hydration was for about 20 mins in a covered container.

Ahhh... screw it... I'm gonna chalk it up to crap beer/change in process. I'll give the fermenter another couple of brews and if there is no change then it will go in the recycling.

Duck

 

[mxd]

My sheets turned up in the mail yesterday too.

Nearly every comp I have entered (all 5 including internal club comps) I get a score sheet back saying "infection, check sanitation" etc etc.

The odd thing is that most of my brews or at least the ones fermented as ales go thru the same fermenter as it has an immersion heater setup on it for temp control.

That fermenter would have to be one of the cleanest fermenters around. It gets disassembled, washed, rinsed and then filled with milton solution measured out to the drop.. then a few more for good measure. Then left for 12-48 hours. Then emptied and filled with boiling water. Then emptied and selaed or filled immediately with wort for the next batch.

Maybe my tastebuds are fcked but I cannot taste any infection in my brews. Is there any other "flavours" that can be obtained through fermentation of barley, water, hops, yeast that could resemble what judges seem to think is an infection ?


Duck

Some of the beers of mine that I "taste" as infected have been more about temp control and yeast health, something to look at ?

 

[brendo]

Hi Stuster,

From memory, the particular brew that attracted these recent comments was a BIAB that I had to colour adjust after a few days in the fermenter as it was more a pale ale than an english brown. The colour adjustment was mashed for 30 mins and boiled for 10.

I did a second adjustment using a similar process a few days later.

They are the only things I can think of that are out of whack to my normal process.

Yeast-wise I used a dried yeast that was rehydrated in a container that had been cleaned with boiling water prior to use. Re-hydration was for about 20 mins in a covered container.

Ahhh... screw it... I'm gonna chalk it up to crap beer/change in process. I'll give the fermenter another couple of brews and if there is no change then it will go in the recycling.

Duck

Hey Duck - you keep referencing boiling water - are you sanitising as well mate?? If not, get yourself some starsan or iodophor...

 

[bcp]

I put in two beers - one i was pretty happy with (Belgian Golden Strong) & an ESB i knew there was something wrong with but didn't know quite what it was & figured the judges would tell me. Pretty brave, huh.

The BSGA i got 109.5 - which i was pretty pleased about - as well as a few good tips. My first ever belgian.
The ESB was rightly punished with a low mark - but got what I paid for - some helpful feedback.

But one of the comments was: 'carbonation a bit low'. But i just came back from the UK, and it has more carbonation than the bitters on the hand pump i was drinking. Is that just an aussie perception or should a bottled version have more carbonation?

I also figured out that when i bought my first bag of malt, i stuck it in the freezer for ages because i didn't have anywhere mouse-proof. Big mistake. The subtle unidentifiable off flavour in my ESB one of the judges mentioned i now think is a fridgy taste.

 

[The_Duck]

Hey Duck - you keep referencing boiling water - are you sanitising as well mate?? If not, get yourself some starsan or iodophor...

Hi Brendo... yeah I have for a long time been using Milton (sodium hypochlorite) but need to use boiled water as a rinse as Milton is not a "no-rinse" sanitiser.

I now have StarSan available to use.


Duck

 

[haysie]

Less noise more Vicbrew.

 

[manticle]

Sodium hyporchlorite is the active ingredient in chlorine bleach no?

Could it be chlorephenols from not rinsing well enough?