Vic Case Swap Xmas In July 2010 Tasting Thread

[haysie]

Firstly, thanks to Wolfy for getting my beers to the venue and back, secondly thanks to all the contributors. Well done!

Washed out today so I brewed an Aussie Bitter for the next fishing comp in August, and drunk my first swap

#9 KLEINY
Good black & white artwork.
Poured well in the jug, I could take the lot and leave no waste, no sea monkies so its good to see another CP entry.
Small fluffy head that held to the final sip, hazy appearance and lotsa carbonation.
Not familiar with Rogue or Pacman yeast, I couldnt find this recipe in the recipe thread.
Lotsa piney/floral aroma up front on the nose, but couldnt pick it up too well on the palate. Mouthfeel was "bitey" from high carbonation. The bitterness vrs the malt was in balance, would have liked some more late hopping assuming its an IPA. @ 6% the alcohol warmth is well subdued.
Overall, I enjoyed it. Nice beer, thanks Kleiny.

 

[manticle]

Def not a hot alcohol issue, it would be solventy with noticable excessive esters. It could be a yeast issue also, have you used this strain often? Did you have any troubles with the ferment? Any strange temperatures at any stage? That astringency could be the begining of the typical burnt rubber you can get from unhealthy yeast but from memory i dont think this was the case.

Honestly, at this stage i think its probaably recipe related. See below



What part of the runnigns are you caramelising? if you are boiling down tannic runnings, this could be heighteneing the astringency.

I'd avoid using CaCO3 in the mash and in the boil next time. Also, are you weighing the salts with gram accurate (or better) scales? What looks like an eyeball of CaCO3 of roughly 3g might actually be 6-7. Even 3g adjusts the pH quite abit and the HCO3 to 150ppm to be precise. I'd look at avoiding it altogether with a host sparge of 80deg. You should never really go above 77 especially if you have water with carbonates in it. I used to spare at 77 and now sparge at 73 for safety and i notice no differene in my efficiencies so i dont go that high anymore. Quite pointless for me todo so.


Suggestions for re-doing this beer.

- NO Carbonates.
- Caramelise middle runnings, not head or tail.
- Lower sparge temp.
- Ensure you pitch healthy yeast, if possible i'd think about top-cropping form a currently fermenting batch so you get the 'cream of the crop' (pun intended)

Very accurately weighed - scales much more accurate than those we used on the weekend: 0.1g increments. From the reading I've been doing I've been avoiding CaCo3 recently - that addition was calculated for me by grain and grape.

Runnings caramelised are total runnings - I used to do first runnings and noted some head retention issues.

As for yeast health - I brewed a tester with a new pack of London ale III, top cropped then built a starter for this from the top cropped yeast so I'm pretty sure the yeast was super healthy. It behaved the same way my other experiences with this yeast (and other true top croppers) have behaved - monstrous krausen, chews through gravity like nothing else for most of the ferment then drops right back till it seems stalled and needs encouragement to go forward. Massive krausen remains throughout - I get this with 1007 as well as other UK yeasts ( and a bit with 3068).

Of all the things you've suggested I'd wager the carbonate is probably the contender. Next time I'll do it I'll drop that out and see. If the issue is still there I'll look at dropping sparge to 72 (or at least being more accurate - usually anything between 70 and 80 I'm fine with).

Cheers for the suggestions.

 

[Fourstar]

would have liked some more late hopping assuming its an IPA. @ 6% the alcohol warmth is well subdued.
Overall, I enjoyed it. Nice beer, thanks Kleiny.

Maibock Actually!

 

[Kleiny]

Haysie

I reckon by your comments and if you are saying there was no yeast in the bottle you may have got one that was mixed up. When i was packing and labelling i went looking for another bottle and thought it was a maibock, but obviously it wasnt. I would say it was a rye pale ale.

as long as it was alright

Kleiny

 

[zebba]

So is yours filtered kleiny? I recall something about "yeast harvesting goodness" being mentioned, so your's (and a few other beers) were going towards the end of the queue while I wait from some test tubes to arrive (as usual, I have a source of freebies but it may take a few weeks for them to show up )

 

[haysie]

Maibock Actually!

Rye maybe :beerbang:
Glad I didnt shitcan it as an IPA.Where`s the reference to Maibock? edit, the wiki! didnt look there, went straight to the recipe thread.

Haysie

I reckon by your comments and if you are saying there was no yeast in the bottle you may have got one that was mixed up. When i was packing and labelling i went looking for another bottle and thought it was a maibock, but obviously it wasnt. I would say it was a rye pale ale.

as long as it was alright

Kleiny

It was fine, the piney? to me i mentioned is probably the rye.

 

[Kleiny]

Zeb, yes if your bottle has some yeast in the bottom it will be pacman, so harvest away.

 

[Wolfy]

even though im not participating in the swap, can I just say that its this kind of feedback that makes the caseswaps worthwhile. of course not everyone is going to get that type of feedback (which is fine)., But the point of these tasting threads to to help others with perfecting beers, processes. methods etc etc. not a circle jerk as previously mentioned.

Without intending to derail the tasting thread with off-topic comments, I do agree with you. However at the same time - after reading some of the comments here (both good and bad) - I want my beer back!
Unlike some I'm no expert home brewer with many years experience, but I did the best I can with the equipment and ingredients I had, and that's good enough for me, if others don't like it, then I'm sorry but at least it's only one bottle. :icon_vomit:

Having spoken to a few no-attendees/participants, and tried to encourage them to swap or even attend the swap-meet, it does seem that some people feel they have to be 'professional' home brewers before they enter, and I suspect that public feed back is partly to blame. Although there was no shortage of attendees some system of 'voluntary public feedback' might encourage others to participate in the future. However there is no easy way for the brewer to elect to have the tasting comments made public or not.

Having said that, I personally, encourage and want the feedback, I just hope it's not all bad.
This was my first case swap or case swap meet, so if then if there are people who are hesitant about entering in the futre, I'd just like to reiterate that I/we found everyone (even the 'professional' home brewers, and the real professional brewers who were there on the night) friendly, (generally) sociable, (mostly) non-scary, but all happy to share information and offer assistance or advice ... so not being 'good enough' it not something to worry. If someone can make beer without infection and obvious production flaws, I hope they'd consider entering or at least coming to future case-swap days, even if the feedback about their beer will be public and many jokes and jibes will follow if the beer happens not to be perfect*. :icon_drunk:

* I really hope my beer carbonates up OK, if not close your eyes and pretend you're in some English pub 200 years ago (when the recipe is from) and they pulled the beer from a cask.

 

[mxd]

I am very nervous about mine. I like the idea of a swap to learn/taste etc.. Maybe we need to make a noob swap and a "comp" type swap.

 

[manticle]

Really the only reason to be nervous is if you think it may be infected or blow up in someone's garage.

If people are hesitant about entering because they don't think they're up to scratch (I didn't when I was first invited to one only two years ago) then they should see it as something to aim for. I think the main reason you enter IS to get honest (hopefully constructive) feedback - not to get a free case of beer.

The swap IS to learn/taste -if it's completely full of beginners then what are they learning? The feedback - as well as giving you ideas on how to improve your beer, also gives your palate a chance to grow and develop by reading comments and finding things in beers you may not have before.

By the way - my AG experience totals about a year - my total brewing experience is probably less than four years. If I can do it - anyone can. We all just need some mantesticles (thanks Rook for that lovely ephitet).

 

[MeLoveBeer]

I'm one of the most noob AG brewer on these forums and personally the feedback is the best reason I can think of for attending the swaps (plus i heard the next ones going to be in my home town at Chris's place).

Besides, if my beer is shite and I'm drinking it, I may as well put you blokes through it

 

[beerDingo]

I think at the last swap, people put on the wiki if they wanted public feedback or not. Or maybe that was public BJCP scoring from the BJCP trained. So, i spose if people don't want public feedback, then they can update the wiki. I'm happy to get public feedback, good/bad/ugly...

 

[manticle]

Not getting confused with the lotto mate?

last one had the option of BJCP scoresheet or just everyday feedback. It was good although everything became very style limited.

 

[Fourstar]

Anyway... beer from lastnight.

2. Zebba - Fuggled Amber Ale

Light fruit ester on the nose w/pear and peach aromas. A dense rocky tan head and deep copper in appearance, quite clear. Mildly floral and earthy hop aroma but nothing specifically distinctive e.g. Fuggles. Also, looking at your recipe now i couldnt specifically detect any US hops, interesting. It had to warm up ALOT to get any descernable malt aromas. When served at 10 deg, it was quite muted and merely 'sweet' but once it warmed it was quite caramel focused with some light nuttiness and breadcrusts on the nose.

Quite efferescent which was apparent due to the loose head formation. Sweet toffee, caramel and nuts on the palate and a mild lingering bitterness and biscuit notes in the finish. A thin to moderate body and moderate to high carbonation. The palate sensation changed as it warmed also. Getting more toast and some deep breadcrust, burnt husk and dusy cocoa characters too. The malt was quite complex and muddy at most times bu tthe finish was where you could pick out most of the flavours.

Overall a well made beer. Besides carbonation theres is not much i would change in the recipe and sure as hell no faults (i dont know where people where getting apples?!) Maybe adjust the malt bill somewhat (remove one) as the palate sensation was slightly muddled and you could only really pickup distinct malt charcters in the finish. The aroma didnt really entice me, but hey thats just my palate and possibly the temperatures it was served at.

Other than that, a well crafted beer Zeb! :icon_chickcheers:

 

[haysie]

I can see where Wolfy is coming from....... Its not a "to style" swap and really shouldnt be commented that way IMO, the tasting threads seem to go all "to style" and then as some are having here, a personal evaluation. This will lead into a 3000+ post thread, whats the sense.
Lets remember, IF you want to make a comment on a beer lets not put it up against AABC, BJCP, just comment how YOU find the beer, if the recipient wants to delve further, there is always the PM button.

 

[manticle]

I can see where Wolfy is coming from....... Its not a "to style" swap and really shouldnt be commented that way IMO, the tasting threads seem to go all "to style" and then as some are having here, a personal evaluation. This will lead into a 3000+ post thread, whats the sense.
Lets remember, IF you want to make a comment on a beer lets not put it up against AABC, BJCP, just comment how YOU find the beer, if the recipient wants to delve further, there is always the PM button.

Like you say - we could have 3000 posts. Personally I try to experience each beer as a balanced beer first, whether I enjoy it next and only rely on sense of style if it's something I'm not into as much but know that's what they were aiming for. I don't know enough about styles anyway and find they can be too restrictive if it's all you're looking at.

I guess that means I agree with you.

 

[WarmBeer]

We all just need some mantesticles (thanks Rook for that lovely ephitet).

Mantesticles - Tautological nickname is a tautology

 

[manticle]

I did suggest they were better than chick testicles. He said we'll see at 2am. Where were you at 2am rook?

 

[Fourstar]

I think at the last swap, people put on the wiki if they wanted public feedback or not. Or maybe that was public BJCP scoring from the BJCP trained. So, i spose if people don't want public feedback, then they can update the wiki. I'm happy to get public feedback, good/bad/ugly...

That was if people wanted BJCP scores for their beer.

I can see where Wolfy is coming from....... Its not a "to style" swap and really shouldnt be commented that way IMO, the tasting threads seem to go all "to style" and then as some are having here, a personal evaluation. This will lead into a 3000+ post thread, whats the sense. Lets remember, IF you want to make a comment on a beer lets not put it up against AABC, BJCP, just comment how YOU find the beer, if the recipient wants to delve further, there is always the PM button.

My descriptions are BJCP weighted (just the way i approach tasting beers) and so is the feedback/overall impression. If its scored or not, its still the way i describe beers adn i think is the best way todo so to get the most out of it as a taster and producer. either way, i think its the most honest and least offensive way of providing feedback to somone. As long as you know the style or broad style. e.g. porter and not brown porter well and justify why you are stating specific things in your comments. e.g. not saying "this pilsner needs more dry hopping" or "this belgian wit is shit or because its got a mild sour tartness" or" your stout fails because it doesnt fit A style." :blink: (after all, this isnt a competition, its a beer share). you should be happy to recieve some feedback.

Amongst other things, unless your beer is a world class example of the style, there is always SOMETHING to fix, adjust or improve to take the recipe to that next level. Sometimes it just takes the feedback from a few descerning palates and brewers with some tasting and technical knowledge to get you there. best of all you are getting this feedback for FREE unlike in a competition, nor are you scored and ranked from best to worst. (unless you want me to score it.) :icon_cheers:

At this point, i'll give everyone feedback. If anyone wishes to opt out, send me a PM and i wont give you *honest feedback.

There is no sugar coating here and im definitly not out to offend anyone. Just look at my tasting notes so far, Im sure no one takes any of this in offence. If you are, you probaably vote family first and shouldnt be drinking beer anyway! Please, THINK OF THE CHILDREN! :lol: h34r:


*trust me, not everyone gives you honest feedback.

 

[haysie]

"honest feedback" to style I guess? carry on... I`ll shoot ya a pm to say mine aint to style
When I taste other swappers, do I taste against a style? or how I found it? I think ya being a little bit up yaself 4star.