manticle
Standing up for the Aussie Bottler
Isn't inversion something you do to split sucrose into glucose and fructose? The wort would be maltose so no need to invert (also wort is acidic).
Using The Kettle Trub
- Thread starter Nick JD
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Only to have it snapped off and shoved up his a$%e by..........
Bahhaha! funny as, with the new caped crusader TP avatar/ pic. :lol:
I like the idea of using what you have to suit what you need at the time.
Utilizing something you would usually discard is well worth thought and discussion. Waste not want not and all that.
I'll also use wort from a cube to make a starter as long as its not too far away from intended brew but then again the yeast required is usually not suitable if the that jump is to big so it works most times if you have even a moderate range of yeasts.
Daz
Nick JD
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Yes. I added 200g of sucrose, so the pinch of citric acid was to split the sucrose. If I hadn't added all that sugar I would have just been caramelising the (mainly) maltose. My aim here (as I've done in previous Kristallweizens) is to give the aftertaste a hint of caramel.
IMO the caramel you get from reducing sugaz is not the same caramel you get from spec grains.
B
bradsbrew
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This is what I was getting at. I should have added the extra steps that include sugar additions. And I use the citric to separate the sugars for the yeast. Although I dont use my method for caramel flavours. I use it to help big beers (high Grav) to chew through the wort. Which gives a dryer beer.
Cheers
Guys seriously there is stuff in trub you just don't want in your beer, and I seriously doubt you can filter it out easily.
Wort costs what 50c/L if that and we are talking about 200 mL or so, maybe 10c worth, wouldn't it be better to muck around with some premium clean wort and throw the trub out.
BribieG that's an idea worth trying a Dunkel Weise Douple Bock all day sucker sounds great
Not trying to be a smartarse but reading the thread some of you might find this helpful: -
Invert, to break a complex sugar into simpler parts. Maltose is Glucose-Glucose; White Sugar is Glucose-Fructose. A water molecule is put where the join is so if you invert Maltose you end up with Dexter Rotated Glucose Mono Hydrate (sold as Dextrose in all conveniently located HBS's and supermarkets)
Caramelisation, is joining sugars to sugars. Happens at quite high temperatures, the process can be sped up by catalysts like acids. Fairly random process carried too far you end up with black sticky crud.
Candy, a bit of both of the above, the inverting exposes a bond where something has to go, might be water or another sugar, inverting then further heating ejects water and encourages more sugarsugar bonding
Milliards Reactions are when Sugars combines with Protein and is the main cause for wort darkening. Happens easily even at below boiling temperatures. A lot of the colour development seen in the OP is probably this rather than Caramelisation.
Just from memory so might not be technically accurate but just to give a starting point
MHB
Wort costs what 50c/L if that and we are talking about 200 mL or so, maybe 10c worth, wouldn't it be better to muck around with some premium clean wort and throw the trub out.
BribieG that's an idea worth trying a Dunkel Weise Douple Bock all day sucker sounds great
Not trying to be a smartarse but reading the thread some of you might find this helpful: -
Invert, to break a complex sugar into simpler parts. Maltose is Glucose-Glucose; White Sugar is Glucose-Fructose. A water molecule is put where the join is so if you invert Maltose you end up with Dexter Rotated Glucose Mono Hydrate (sold as Dextrose in all conveniently located HBS's and supermarkets)
Caramelisation, is joining sugars to sugars. Happens at quite high temperatures, the process can be sped up by catalysts like acids. Fairly random process carried too far you end up with black sticky crud.
Candy, a bit of both of the above, the inverting exposes a bond where something has to go, might be water or another sugar, inverting then further heating ejects water and encourages more sugarsugar bonding
Milliards Reactions are when Sugars combines with Protein and is the main cause for wort darkening. Happens easily even at below boiling temperatures. A lot of the colour development seen in the OP is probably this rather than Caramelisation.
Just from memory so might not be technically accurate but just to give a starting point
MHB
Nick JD
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MHB, seriously - this makes my beer taste nice. I've done it a few times now. From what you've just said ... you haven't done it at all.
If you like the idea of a lollie made this way - you should taste what it does for your beer.
Try it some time - and give us some feedback that's not guesswork and crappy regurgitated sugar chemistry.
Batz
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B
bradsbrew
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Thanks MHB this is intersting. I have believed that simple sugar is sucrose and fructose, invert this to separate. Maltose is new to me so by adding some sugar and excess wort (not trub) to a pot and boiling it down what am I adding to my brew? I find it helps the attenuation. And is dextrose sold in shops the same as the dextrose you get from inverting AG wort.
Cheers Brad
Nick JD
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The Maillard reaction needs proteins. Caramelisation of sucrose's breakdown in acidic water doesn't. The products of both are very similar tasting.
It could be that the proteins carried over from the kettle trub are what makes this stuff so tasty. Contrary to some opinions.
Try it. It's good.
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Thanks, Batz - first time I've been called young in a long time.
Batz
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Drifting slightly off topic, but...
Not quite, there are 4 simple sugars Glucose (most common), Fructose (fair bit around), Galactose (rare) and Mannose (rocking horse poo). All the other 2.6 Million known sugars are made up of these.
Maltose and Sucrose are Disaccharides, i.e. made up of two simple sugars as in previous post; Lactose is also a Disaccharide made up of Glucose-Galactose and is the simplest un-fermentable sugar (at least by common yeast).
From there sugar chemistry is just adding more simple sugars together, 3 to 5 Glucose joined up and you have wort dextrin's more and you have starch heaps and you end up with cellulose.
Mashing is all about taking starch apart and reducing it to a desired balance of fermentable (mostly disaccharides i.e. Maltose) and the right number of unfermentable dextrin (bigger sugars)
Typical Lager wort would be (roughly)
Maltose ~65%
Maltotriose ~17%
Sucrose ~5%
Glucose <10%
Fructose <3%
And a couple of percent other stuff like higher sugars, protein, gums and minerals salts
Don't you just love brewing?
Mark
Not quite, there are 4 simple sugars Glucose (most common), Fructose (fair bit around), Galactose (rare) and Mannose (rocking horse poo). All the other 2.6 Million known sugars are made up of these.
Maltose and Sucrose are Disaccharides, i.e. made up of two simple sugars as in previous post; Lactose is also a Disaccharide made up of Glucose-Galactose and is the simplest un-fermentable sugar (at least by common yeast).
From there sugar chemistry is just adding more simple sugars together, 3 to 5 Glucose joined up and you have wort dextrin's more and you have starch heaps and you end up with cellulose.
Mashing is all about taking starch apart and reducing it to a desired balance of fermentable (mostly disaccharides i.e. Maltose) and the right number of unfermentable dextrin (bigger sugars)
Typical Lager wort would be (roughly)
Maltose ~65%
Maltotriose ~17%
Sucrose ~5%
Glucose <10%
Fructose <3%
And a couple of percent other stuff like higher sugars, protein, gums and minerals salts
Don't you just love brewing?
Mark
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RdeVjun
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Interesting discussion chaps! IMO, caramelising wort is a bit of a black art, particularly while not in the possession of a candy thermometer (remembering that maltose caramelises @ 180C)... That's not to say there's no point, this process Nick has shown us should yield some different and otherwise- challenging flavours, I just found that with plain, unhopped, pre- boil wort that a consitent and reliable flavour effect was slightly elusive, even after about 20- odd tries with the TTL experience, so I have paused that for a while to regroup and try a few different brews for a bit before I wear the ESB part of my palette out.
Having said that, there is a fair bit of science to point us in the right direction (thanks very much!), particularly if you want to use just base malts as an educational experience, something I recommend doing at least once.
Depending on what you want to use it for, and what your method is, there's a couple of opportunities to harvest some extra wort/ liquor for caramelising and also for yeast starters. Straight wort from the boil (at various points), post- boil trub, post- NC trub, even dregs draining from the mash tun/ BIAB bag, all of it is fair game for me for starters and I've never really been bothered about any naff flavours from using it in starters or slants, particularly if much of it ends up down the drain anyway with steps and so on. Mind you, I've just been using mostly DME of late, damned lagers chewed through much of the reserve with those big starters plus I haven't been brewing as much...
Say, those Schott bottles look pretty darned handy, must see if I can get a few myself!
Having said that, there is a fair bit of science to point us in the right direction (thanks very much!), particularly if you want to use just base malts as an educational experience, something I recommend doing at least once.
Depending on what you want to use it for, and what your method is, there's a couple of opportunities to harvest some extra wort/ liquor for caramelising and also for yeast starters. Straight wort from the boil (at various points), post- boil trub, post- NC trub, even dregs draining from the mash tun/ BIAB bag, all of it is fair game for me for starters and I've never really been bothered about any naff flavours from using it in starters or slants, particularly if much of it ends up down the drain anyway with steps and so on. Mind you, I've just been using mostly DME of late, damned lagers chewed through much of the reserve with those big starters plus I haven't been brewing as much...
Say, those Schott bottles look pretty darned handy, must see if I can get a few myself!
Love those Schotties, I have 3 of them on the go right at this moment: one with some S-189 cake that has been stored in it, warming up on the sink. Another with a dose of Hallertau tea that I'll be chucking in with the yeast probably in the morning, and a third with the saved wort from yesterdays brew that I'll shortly be mixing with the S-189 to get the starter going.
MHB - out of interest, when yeast attacks cane sugar, i.e. sucrose (glucose / fructose disaccharide) it has to crack it first using the enzyme invertase. With maltose (glucose / glucose disaccharide) what enzyme, if any, would it use?
MHB - out of interest, when yeast attacks cane sugar, i.e. sucrose (glucose / fructose disaccharide) it has to crack it first using the enzyme invertase. With maltose (glucose / glucose disaccharide) what enzyme, if any, would it use?
RdeVjun
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Only three, BribieG? My word, the move has slowed that production line down!
The creators of pyrex probably didn't quite realise just what they'd done! FSM bless him/ her/ them! A 4 or 5 litre version would be handy though, guess for Anna's ants there's always mathematics to the rescue... :icon_cheers:
The creators of pyrex probably didn't quite realise just what they'd done! FSM bless him/ her/ them! A 4 or 5 litre version would be handy though, guess for Anna's ants there's always mathematics to the rescue... :icon_cheers:
manticle
Standing up for the Aussie Bottler
I remember in a thread about wort caramelisation people were talking about adding citric to invert the malt which seems counter intuitive. I thought that's what you meant.
@MHB - what I was getting at is that inversion in brewing is usually done to make sucrose digested by yeast without production of invertase as far as I understand it. Yeast digest maltose without producing this enzyme so adding acid would be unnecessary. Hopefully I've understood correctly.
dr K
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keeping off topic and to continue on from MHB
my personal thoughts on invert sugar in brewing or more specifically inverting sucrose for brewing is that its a bit of a red-herring.
our old mate yeast is more than happy feasting on sucrose and its mates, it has done so for a long time and does so by releasing an enzyme invertase.
at the levels of sucrose that we are talking about in all grain + sugary adjunct its maybe 2% sucrose, often 10%, hardly a stress on our invertase pumped friend
back on topic..nice lollies !! (and an interesting if time consuming twist, if you keep doing it it must be worth the time, it appeals to me because of its almost wholistic element)
K
my personal thoughts on invert sugar in brewing or more specifically inverting sucrose for brewing is that its a bit of a red-herring.
our old mate yeast is more than happy feasting on sucrose and its mates, it has done so for a long time and does so by releasing an enzyme invertase.
at the levels of sucrose that we are talking about in all grain + sugary adjunct its maybe 2% sucrose, often 10%, hardly a stress on our invertase pumped friend
back on topic..nice lollies !! (and an interesting if time consuming twist, if you keep doing it it must be worth the time, it appeals to me because of its almost wholistic element)
K
manticle
Standing up for the Aussie Bottler
I only bother for Belgians where the sugar percentage is up around 10-20. The heat is likely to invert anyway and I develop colour and flavour with my reduction. Possibly it is a red herring but sqeezing a lemon or orange or adding a touch of white vinegar to my candy is interesting and gives a slight flavour note I like. A small amount of sucrose/dextrose in an aussie bitter would just go straight in the boil.
