Using Dex or Cane Sugar to Dry out an IIPA

[AndrewQLD]

Situation 1: Asking a yeast population optimal for 1.085 (while under duress being in an 8.5% fermentation) to cope with a sudden increase in SG to 1.100 with no easy ability to increase their population.

Situation 2: Asking a small yeast population at pitch to ascertain the OG and breed to a sufficient population to handle 1.100.

I was under the impression that yeast will only multiply until all available oxygen is consumed, they then go into sugar eating/alcohol making mode.
I had no idea yeast would continue to multiply according to the OG of a wort.

 

[QldKev]

During the Lag phase they utilise the oxygen and get ready for the ferment. It's later in the Log phase where they multiple whilst consuming the sugars.

 

[Nick JD]

I had no idea yeast would continue to multiply according to the OG of a wort.

I can't remember the signaling chemical they use (starts with S IIRC).

If you have 2L of water and add a gram of LDME and 10 yeast cells, will they breed up to the same population as the same 10 cells added to 2L of water with 200g of LDME?

If so - why are we making starters with 1.040 wort? When we could get the same yeast population with 1.001 wort...

 

[QldKev]

I can't remember the signaling chemical they use (starts with S IIRC).

If you have 2L of water and add a gram of LDME and 10 yeast cells, will they breed up to the same population as the same 10 cells added to 2L of water with 200g of LDME?

If so - why are we making starters with 1.040 wort? When we could get the same yeast population with 1.001 wort...

Isn't it because of the flavors they throw when they multiply? Under pitching would produce a very estery beer

edit: from wyeastlab
Many of the significant aromatic and flavor compounds are by-products of cell growth and are produced during the log phase. Many large breweries try to limit the amount of yeast growth by pitching larger quantities of yeast and therefore minimize ester synthesis. Keeping fermentations cold also limits ester production by limiting the rate of growth.

 

[Nick JD]

Isn't it because of the flavors they throw when they multiply? Under pitching would produce a very estery beer

True, but I talking about making a starter with 2L of 1.001 wort to illustrate that the yeast would not multiply to the same population as 2L of 1.040 wort.

There isn't enough food to support that population. Less budding, same oxygen.

I've been doing a bit of reading about how the whole yeast metabolism system is nutso inefficient, but it's all done to produce the alcohol - because that eliminates most of their competition. These little feckers are smarter than ya think.

From Wyeast:

Cell Growth:
The two main factors associated with controlling the level of cell growth in fermentations are sterol content in cell membranes and amount of sugar available.
In most standard fermentations, the sterol content in the cultures is the limiting factor in cell growth. Sterols (See Oxygenation section) are only synthesized during the early stages of fermentations and are diluted every time a cell buds. When sterol levels reach a certain point in the cell membrane, the cell will stop budding. If very high pitch rates are used, as is the case with most starters, the culture can exhaust the sugar source prior to depleting the sterol contents. The depletion of sugar will cause the culture to stop growing.

 

[AndrewQLD]

True, but I talking about making a starter with 2L of 1.001 wort to illustrate that the yeast would not multiply to the same population as 2L of 1.040 wort.

There isn't enough food to support that population. Less budding, same oxygen.

I've been doing a bit of reading about how the whole yeast metabolism system is nutso inefficient, but it's all done to produce the alcohol - because that eliminates most of their competition. These little feckers are smarter than ya think.

From Wyeast:

Cell Growth:
The two main factors associated with controlling the level of cell growth in fermentations are sterol content in cell membranes and amount of sugar available.
In most standard fermentations, the sterol content in the cultures is the limiting factor in cell growth. Sterols (See Oxygenation section) are only synthesized during the early stages of fermentations and are diluted every time a cell buds. When sterol levels reach a certain point in the cell membrane, the cell will stop budding. If very high pitch rates are used, as is the case with most starters, the culture can exhaust the sugar source prior to depleting the sterol contents. The depletion of sugar will cause the culture to stop growing.

Sounds like a **** load of contributing factors, kinda makes me glad i just pitch my yeast and let nature take it's course, way too much to think about. :wacko:

 

[QldKev]

I think we are on the same page, that the Lag phase is only there to condition the cells ready for the Log phase. The amount of resulting cells is determined by the Log phase which is more dependent on the gravity of the wort. We do want healthy cells from the Lag phase to ensure the yeasties are conditioned (Sterols) to produce our desired beer. Hence we produce our starters at around 1.040 so they are not stressed out from working too hard on a big starter; but not coming back from the Bahamas ready to get to work, but only having minimal cells to kick off and multiplying too much resulting in too much of the yeasty sex juices (esters) in our beer.

 

[Nick JD]

Yeasty sex juices made me do a little bit of sick in my mouth.

 

[mje1980]

I just bottled a 10.3% IIPA,, which had 800g of sugar in the boil. Pitched onto the cake of a 4.5% ale, it was fine, and attenuated right where I had hoped it would ( 1.014 from memory ). I have also added similar amounts to Belgian trippel, but after initial fermentation. Both methods worked fine. If the yeast are healthy, and you have enough, both ways should work.

 

[bum]

Thanks to the posters above who have clarified my misunderstandings in my previous posts.

 

[Fat Bastard]

I suppose I better update the thread and explain my results. I brewed this recipe:

Imperial IPA

Recipe Specs
----------------
Batch Size (L): 25.0
Total Grain (kg): 7.860
Total Hops (g): 525.00
Original Gravity (OG): 1.080 (°P): 19.3
Final Gravity (FG): 1.015 (°P): 3.8
Alcohol by Volume (ABV): 8.48 %
Colour (SRM): 15.2 (EBC): 29.9
Bitterness (IBU): 98.6 (Rager)
Brewhouse Efficiency (%): 80
Boil Time (Minutes): 60

Grain Bill
----------------
6.200 kg Pale Ale Malt (78.88%)
0.500 kg Carapils (Dextrine) (6.36%)
0.400 kg Carared (5.09%)
0.250 kg Corn Sugar (3.18%)
0.250 kg Crystal 60 (3.18%)
0.200 kg Crystal 120 (2.54%)
0.060 kg Chocolate (0.76%)

Hop Bill
----------------
5.0 g Simcoe Pellet (12.2% Alpha) @ 60 Minutes (Boil) (0.2 g/L)
5.0 g Warrior Pellet (16% Alpha) @ 60 Minutes (Boil) (0.2 g/L)
5.0 g Simcoe Pellet (12.2% Alpha) @ 40 Minutes (Boil) (0.2 g/L)
10.0 g Warrior Pellet (16% Alpha) @ 40 Minutes (Boil) (0.4 g/L)
10.0 g Amarillo Pellet (8.6% Alpha) @ 30 Minutes (Boil) (0.4 g/L)
10.0 g Simcoe Pellet (12.2% Alpha) @ 30 Minutes (Boil) (0.4 g/L)
10.0 g Warrior Pellet (16% Alpha) @ 30 Minutes (Boil) (0.4 g/L)
20.0 g Amarillo Pellet (8.6% Alpha) @ 20 Minutes (Boil) (0.8 g/L)
15.0 g Simcoe Pellet (12.2% Alpha) @ 20 Minutes (Boil) (0.6 g/L)
10.0 g Warrior Pellet (16% Alpha) @ 20 Minutes (Boil) (0.4 g/L)
25.0 g Amarillo Pellet (8.6% Alpha) @ 10 Minutes (Boil) (1 g/L)
15.0 g Simcoe Pellet (12.2% Alpha) @ 10 Minutes (Boil) (0.6 g/L)
5.0 g Warrior Pellet (15.8% Alpha) @ 10 Minutes (Boil) (0.2 g/L)
40.0 g Amarillo Pellet (8.6% Alpha) @ 0 Minutes (Boil) (1.6 g/L)
20.0 g Simcoe Pellet (12.2% Alpha) @ 0 Minutes (Boil) (0.8 g/L)
80.0 g Amarillo Pellet (9% Alpha) @-10 Minutes (Whirlpool) (3.2 g/L)
40.0 g Simcoe Pellet (12.2% Alpha) @ -10 Minutes (Whirlpool) (1.6 g/L)
200.0 g Amarillo Pellet (9% Alpha) @ 7 Days (Dry Hop) (8 g/L)

Misc Bill
----------------
4.0 g Calcium Chloride @ 0 Minutes (Mash)
2.5 g Epsom Salt (MgSO4) @ 0 Minutes (Mash)
2.0 g Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) @ 0 Minutes (Mash)
4.0 g Yeast Nutrient @ 10 Minutes (Boil)
8.0 g Brewbrite @ 0 Minutes (Boil)
2.9 g Calcium Chloride @ 0 Minutes (Boil)
1.5 g Epsom Salt (MgSO4) @ 0 Minutes (Boil)
1.8 g Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) @ 0 Minutes (Boil)

Step Infusion 55/10,64/60,72/10,78/10
Fermented at 18°C with WLP001 - California Ale


Recipe Generated with BrewMate

Turned out so well, I brewed it twice, second time around was much better due to the 2l stirplate starter and Polyclar & filtering. The first batch was good enough to win beer of the night at the brewclub, so it was pretty good, but man he second lot is amazing even after only about 4 hours in the keg! It's easily the best beer I have ever brewed.

Couple of problems, it might be a bit too dry. It finished up at 1.010, which is probably at the low end of the range for a IIPA, and it's a bit too light for the dark red I was going for.

Thinking about subbing out the dex for half the amount of Dark Candi Sugar, upping the base and reducing the crystals to get about 20-21 EBC for the same gravity.

Never used Candi Sugar before, so really have no idea how much this amount (200g) will affect the flavour. I'd appreciate some more guidance. I think this recipe is very close to being done after 12 months of development. Thanks everyone for your informative replies above!

Cheers,

FB.

 

[Byran]

Ill have to say, what an insightful topic. Good to read about yeast health and I have to say also...wow thats some hoppy **** in that recipe.

 

[Fat Bastard]

I'll be brewing the next iteration of this in the next few weeks with D2 Candi Sugar and 25% more whirlpool and dry hops, and a slightly revised mash schedule.
Still not hoppy enough!

 

[Kranky]

Just wondering why the late hop additions of warrior? I made a smash beer with warrior when I first started and got almost nothing out of the late additions.

 

[Fat Bastard]

I've found that it smooths out the bitterness when compared to a larger early addition. Warrior is very neutral and I don't expect it to add anything to the aroma. That being said, when I started with this recipe ( the one above is the seventh version) it was designed with Columbus in place of the Warrior, although I've never got around to brewing it with Columbus!

 

[Kranky]

I brewed a IIPA recently using Amarillo, Simcoe and Columbus. Sored a 48 in a local comp. I'd recommend giving it a go.

 

[Thefatdoghead]

When you're stepping up starters, do you oxygenate for each step?

Do you oxygenate your 8.5% beer than you plan to take up to 10.5% with additional sugars?

Check the homebrew chefs 120minute IPA. He adds heaps of oxygen and sugar during fermentation to get to 20 something percent.
So yes you can.

 

[Fat Bastard]

I brewed a IIPA recently using Amarillo, Simcoe and Columbus. Sored a 48 in a local comp. I'd recommend giving it a go.

It was originally a hepped-up version of a Green Flash Hop Head Red clone, which is a bloody lovely beer, so I can't imagine it being anything less than fantastic with a Columbus/Simcoe/Amarillo bill!

 

[Bribie G]

What has this bump got to do with the original question about using sugar to dry out an IPA?