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Using Dex or Cane Sugar to Dry out an IIPA

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Fat Bastard

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G'day all.

I've been working on an Imperial Red IPA for ages now, and I'm starting to get it close to what I'd like it to be.

The last one was pretty chewy, and very rich, even though the FG was .004 below target at 1.014.
Recipe is as follows:

Recipe Specs
----------------
Batch Size (L): 25.0
Total Grain (kg): 9.365
Total Hops (g): 420.00
Original Gravity (OG): 1.091 (°P): 21.8
Final Gravity (FG): 1.018 (°P): 4.6
Alcohol by Volume (ABV): 9.54 %
Colour (SRM): 17.3 (EBC): 34.1
Bitterness (IBU): 107.7 (Rager)
Brewhouse Efficiency (%): 80
Boil Time (Minutes): 60

Grain Bill
----------------
7.500 kg Perle Malt (80.09%)
0.650 kg Carapils (Dextrine) (6.94%)
0.650 kg Carared (6.94%)
0.250 kg Crystal 120 (2.67%)
0.250 kg Crystal 60 (2.67%)
0.065 kg Chocolate (0.69%)

Hop Bill
----------------
5.0 g Simcoe Pellet (12.2% Alpha) @ 60 Minutes (Boil) (0.2 g/L)
10.0 g Warrior Pellet (16% Alpha) @ 60 Minutes (Boil) (0.4 g/L)
5.0 g Amarillo Pellet (8.6% Alpha) @ 40 Minutes (Boil) (0.2 g/L)
5.0 g Simcoe Pellet (12.2% Alpha) @ 40 Minutes (Boil) (0.2 g/L)
10.0 g Warrior Pellet (16% Alpha) @ 40 Minutes (Boil) (0.4 g/L)
10.0 g Amarillo Pellet (8.6% Alpha) @ 30 Minutes (Boil) (0.4 g/L)
10.0 g Simcoe Pellet (12.2% Alpha) @ 30 Minutes (Boil) (0.4 g/L)
10.0 g Warrior Pellet (16% Alpha) @ 30 Minutes (Boil) (0.4 g/L)
20.0 g Amarillo Pellet (8.6% Alpha) @ 20 Minutes (Boil) (0.8 g/L)
15.0 g Simcoe Pellet (12.2% Alpha) @ 20 Minutes (Boil) (0.6 g/L)
10.0 g Warrior Pellet (16% Alpha) @ 20 Minutes (Boil) (0.4 g/L)
25.0 g Amarillo Pellet (8.6% Alpha) @ 10 Minutes (Boil) (1 g/L)
15.0 g Simcoe Pellet (12.2% Alpha) @ 10 Minutes (Boil) (0.6 g/L)
5.0 g Warrior Pellet (15.8% Alpha) @ 10 Minutes (Boil) (0.2 g/L)
40.0 g Amarillo Pellet (8.6% Alpha) @ 5 Minutes (Boil) (1.6 g/L)
20.0 g Simcoe Pellet (12.2% Alpha) @ 5 Minutes (Boil) (0.8 g/L)
80.0 g Amarillo Pellet (9% Alpha) @ 0 Minutes (Aroma) (3.2 g/L)
40.0 g Simcoe Pellet (12.2% Alpha) @ 0 Minutes (Aroma) (1.6 g/L)
200.0 g Amarillo Pellet (9% Alpha) @ 7 Days (Dry Hop) (3.4 g/L)

Misc Bill
----------------
5.0 g Calcium Chloride @ 0 Minutes (Mash)
5.0 g Epsom Salt (MgSO4) @ 0 Minutes (Mash)
5.0 g Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) @ 0 Minutes (Mash)
8.0 g Brewbrite @ 10 Minutes (Boil)
4.0 g Yeast Nutrient @ 10 Minutes (Boil)

Step Infusion 52/10, 66/60, 72/10, 75/MO
Fermented at 22°C with WLP001 - California Ale (no temp control in the old place)

In the new recipe I've backed the grain bill down quite a bit and intend to mash at 64. I've added 250g of dex to bring the alc up to where I want it to be. Should I be using Dex or cane sugar for this, and should I be using it in the boil/mash or adding to the fermenter after primary?


Recipe Specs
----------------
Batch Size (L): 25.0
Total Grain (kg): 7.860
Total Hops (g): 525.00
Original Gravity (OG): 1.080 (°P): 19.3
Final Gravity (FG): 1.015 (°P): 3.8
Alcohol by Volume (ABV): 8.48 %
Colour (SRM): 15.2 (EBC): 29.9
Bitterness (IBU): 98.6 (Rager)
Brewhouse Efficiency (%): 80
Boil Time (Minutes): 60

Grain Bill
----------------
6.200 kg Pale Ale Malt (78.88%)
0.500 kg Carapils (Dextrine) (6.36%)
0.400 kg Carared (5.09%)
0.250 kg Corn Sugar (3.18%)
0.250 kg Crystal 60 (3.18%)
0.200 kg Crystal 120 (2.54%)
0.060 kg Chocolate (0.76%)

Hop Bill
----------------
5.0 g Simcoe Pellet (12.2% Alpha) @ 60 Minutes (Boil) (0.2 g/L)
5.0 g Warrior Pellet (16% Alpha) @ 60 Minutes (Boil) (0.2 g/L)
5.0 g Simcoe Pellet (12.2% Alpha) @ 40 Minutes (Boil) (0.2 g/L)
10.0 g Warrior Pellet (16% Alpha) @ 40 Minutes (Boil) (0.4 g/L)
10.0 g Amarillo Pellet (8.6% Alpha) @ 30 Minutes (Boil) (0.4 g/L)
10.0 g Simcoe Pellet (12.2% Alpha) @ 30 Minutes (Boil) (0.4 g/L)
10.0 g Warrior Pellet (16% Alpha) @ 30 Minutes (Boil) (0.4 g/L)
20.0 g Amarillo Pellet (8.6% Alpha) @ 20 Minutes (Boil) (0.8 g/L)
15.0 g Simcoe Pellet (12.2% Alpha) @ 20 Minutes (Boil) (0.6 g/L)
10.0 g Warrior Pellet (16% Alpha) @ 20 Minutes (Boil) (0.4 g/L)
25.0 g Amarillo Pellet (8.6% Alpha) @ 10 Minutes (Boil) (1 g/L)
15.0 g Simcoe Pellet (12.2% Alpha) @ 10 Minutes (Boil) (0.6 g/L)
5.0 g Warrior Pellet (15.8% Alpha) @ 10 Minutes (Boil) (0.2 g/L)
40.0 g Amarillo Pellet (8.6% Alpha) @ 5 Minutes (Boil) (1.6 g/L)
20.0 g Simcoe Pellet (12.2% Alpha) @ 5 Minutes (Boil) (0.8 g/L)
80.0 g Amarillo Pellet (9% Alpha) @ 0 Minutes (Aroma) (3.2 g/L)
40.0 g Simcoe Pellet (12.2% Alpha) @ 0 Minutes (Aroma) (1.6 g/L)
200.0 g Amarillo Pellet (9% Alpha) @ 7 Days (Dry Hop) (8 g/L)

Misc Bill
----------------
5.0 g Calcium Chloride @ 0 Minutes (Mash)
5.0 g Epsom Salt (MgSO4) @ 0 Minutes (Mash)
5.0 g Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) @ 0 Minutes (Mash)
8.0 g Brewbrite @ 10 Minutes (Boil)
4.0 g Yeast Nutrient @ 10 Minutes (Boil)
Step Infusion 52/10, 64/60, 72/10, 75/MO
Fermented at 18°C with WLP001 - California Ale

Your input will be appreciated!

Cheers,

FB
 

Nick JD

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I add sugar to the boil for IIPAs and Belgians. A lot of the sucrose will invert.

Seems to me that an alreay stressed yeast is best off knowing what it's got to eat, rather than being freaked out - and then given enough extra sugar to shit in its own nest enough to kill it.

Let it know the full meal at the start. Prepare it for that.
 

bradsbrew

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You've got 20% crystals in a big malty beer. I would drop the 2 crystals (120 and 60) bring the carared down to 250, bring the carapils down to 250. Use sugar to bring the OG back to where you wanted it but add it in 2 additions on day 2 and 3 of ferment.


Cheers brad
 

Fat Bastard

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Cheers guys!

Nick, do you reccomend using Cane or Dex for this?

Brad, I'm not sure I'm ready to drop the crystals yet. I'm basing the recipe around a clone of the old Green Flash Hop Head Red recipe I found on one of the American forums and have backed the percentages down quite a bit from there. I'm not going for an Irish Red colour, more like the old HHR or Heretic Evil Twin, rich, deep 'Coke' red. Almost black, but red when held to the light.

So, now I have 2 different answers, what are the pros for adding the sugar during the ferment? Nick's method seems to make sense to my limited experience. Why would I add the sugar to a fermenting wort? Is it like stepping up a starter?
 

bradsbrew

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Feeding sugars during ferment is a method I have used when building big beers. The basics behind it is that the yeast will chew through the simple sugars first and produce certain flavours, and also alchohol will be more prominent when they have all the sugar at the start. The carapils will add to the body and at 6% as you have it in your recipe is on the high side. You are making a beer that is 8.5% and trying to bring the body down and I presume you dont want the alchohol to be prominent as well. I have done well at comp level with the feeding method one being an Imperial porter at 13.5%. Worked for me.

Cheers
 

Fat Bastard

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So maybe back the Carapils off a bit and use the sugar to get it back to 8.5%? I assume you dissolve the sugar in some boiling water before adding it, do you just boil it for long enough to dissolve and sterilise or do you try to get some caramelisation going on too?

Cheers,

FB
 

bradsbrew

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Yes dissolved and boiled will work. Have also tried inverting with citric acid as well then adding to fermenting brew.

Cheers
 

Nick JD

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Fat Bastard said:
Nick, do you reccomend using Cane or Dex for this?
Dextrose, where possible. It's cheap, and the yeast can access it immediately.

Yeast will breed up according to the sugar level of the wort. If you tell them they only need the numbers for 1.085 and then keep adding sugar until you have a total of 1.100 ... you are essentially underpitching in a stressed environment.

I disagree with the premise that it's a better way to handle yeast in big beers.
 

Damien13

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Bloody hell. Am I the only one who went cross-eyed just looking at that hop schedule??
Hats off sir!
 

bum

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Nick JD said:
Dextrose, where possible. It's cheap, and the yeast can access it immediately.

Yeast will breed up according to the sugar level of the wort. If you tell them they only need the numbers for 1.085 and then keep adding sugar until you have a total of 1.100 ... you are essentially underpitching in a stressed environment.

I disagree with the premise that it's a better way to handle yeast in big beers.
I don't understand your thinking here. Adding smaller amounts of fermentables to a stronger colony (or whatever the correct term is) is more stressful than adding a much smaller colony to a bigger beer?
 

carniebrew

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Damien13 said:
Bloody hell. Am I the only one who went cross-eyed just looking at that hop schedule??
Hats off sir!
No you are most certainly not alone. If I ever had a 9.5% abv beer with 107 IBU's in front of me I wouldn't know whether to drink it or just sit there in amazement poking it with a stick. 200 grams of Amarillo after 7 days of fermentation, in 25 litres of beer. Consider me gobsmacked.
 

Nick JD

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bum said:
...is more stressful than adding a much smaller colony to a bigger beer?
Yeast will signal to stop breeding according to the OG you pitched them into - not the OG in your recipe sheet.

 

bum

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So how do you re-pitch yeast if they're "programmed" to never grow again?
 

Nick JD

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When you're stepping up starters, do you oxygenate for each step?

Do you oxygenate your 8.5% beer than you plan to take up to 10.5% with additional sugars?
 

bum

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Fair point. Thanks.

But for it to negate the benefits Brad suggests (and pretty much all traditional really big beer techniques, innit?) wouldn't there need to be no oxygen available at all? Wouldn't that be the bigger issue anyway?
 

Nick JD

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Situation 1: Asking a yeast population optimal for 1.085 (while under duress being in an 8.5% fermentation) to cope with a sudden increase in SG to 1.100 with no easy ability to increase their population.

Situation 2: Asking a small yeast population at pitch to ascertain the OG and breed to a sufficient population to handle 1.100.
 

manticle

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For beers like big belgians, I add most sugar incrementally once FG is reached. However I usually add 200g or so to the boil and for your addition I would whack it straight in. If it were 800g or so i would at at later points in small doses.

Theory is that yeast may stop being able to consume maltose. Experience has given me hot alcohol when adding loads of sugar in at the start. 250g is not loads though.

You want dry, drop the mash temp to 62
 

bum

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Nick JD said:
Situation 1: Asking a yeast population optimal for 1.085 (while under duress being in an 8.5% fermentation) to cope with a sudden increase in SG to 1.100 with no easy ability to increase their population.

Situation 2: Asking a small yeast population at pitch to ascertain the OG and breed to a sufficient population to handle 1.100.
Situation 2 still sounds like a fairly stressful situation for our little yeasties though. My understanding (shallow as it is) is that if we must stress the hardy little buggers then the initial growth period is the worst time to do it. Is that incorrect?
 

mckenry

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To the OP.
I asked this question re sugar in a Belgian a few years back.
Answer was add it 10 mins to end of boil. It was 1kg white sugar. Did the same job to what youre wanting I reckon.
As for adding it later to the ferment. Not my thing. I like to 'set and forget'. Get my yeastie soldiers prepared for the whole war on those sugars. Not fight later reinforcements..
I know it works feeding gradually for big beers, but I dont like to open the fermenter once pitched (if I can help it). Therefore I rarely dry hop either.
As for those hops - frig. Looks like a lot of messing around. If thats youre thing, go for it.
Personally I would be getting the same IBU's from 60, 30 & 5 mins, especially as you're doing 200g dry hop! I doubt you'll notice any flavour differences from 40 to 30 to 20 mins when you have 107 IBU.
BTW do you really have two different Amarillo? If so, why choose the 9% for dry?
Still, send me a bottle when its done :D
 

RobW

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Nick JD said:
Situation 1: Asking a yeast population optimal for 1.085 (while under duress being in an 8.5% fermentation) to cope with a sudden increase in SG to 1.100 with no easy ability to increase their population.
Sorry I can't agree with this opinion.
You're not raising the gravity to 1.100 because the initial fermentation has already lowered it.
Feeding a ferment over a few days is well accepted and certainly something that's worked well for me.
 

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