Using 5.2 & Water Adjustment With Salts?

[Bretto77]

Hi all,
another water question for those you that adjust water and use five star 5.2. If you adjust your water with salts is their any value in adding 5.2 also, or can this be detrimental? I know that 5.2 lowers pH and for this reason I left it out of a recent AG stout recipe I recently made. Is there value in using both for pale beers? I know darker malts don't need any encouragement to go low in the ph scale. I understand that 5.2 mostly contains phosphates.

Cheers
Brett

 

[chiller]

If you have a pH meter or strips I would be using salt additions first because with the correct amount of Calcium in the mash your grain bill will nearly always reach 5.2 [at mash temp] about 5.4 [at cooled temp]. It is a good idea if you can to lower the sparge water to about 5.7 regardless of fly or batch sparging techniques. I use a syringe and phosphoric acid added slowly. Dr S gave a great tip for introducing small quantities of acid: get a decent whirlpool happening then introduce the acid. Americans seem to swear by the product "5.2". I have never used it so cannot comment.

 

[kevin_smevin]

If you have a pH meter or strips I would be using salt additions first because with the correct amount of Calcium in the mash your grain bill will nearly always reach 5.2 [at mash temp] about 5.4 [at cooled temp]. It is a good idea if you can to lower the sparge water to about 5.7 regardless of fly or batch sparging techniques. I use a syringe and phosphoric acid added slowly. Dr S gave a great tip for introducing small quantities of acid: get a decent whirlpool happening then introduce the acid. Americans seem to swear by the product "5.2". I have never used it so cannot comment.

In my last few brews i have been testing mash pH with a pH meter. I mash with 100ppm Ca and mash pH measured at RT was 5.7. My sparge water had no acid added and the pH of my final runnings was scarcely different from the mash. After listening to a basic brewing radio podcast about pH i am no longer convinced that pH5.2 stabilizer actually does anything useful. It was suggested that it would help prevent the pH drifting above 5.8 and that was about all. The molecules in pH 5.2 stabilizer will work well as buffers at pH2.9 and pH7 - not mash pH.

Ca Salts should always be added even if your going to use 5.2 stabilizer. They dont actually effect pH to a huge degree. I recommend the addition of 50-100ppm Ca in all beers, even dark beers. Your beer will thank you if you do this.

 

[Ross]

PH 5.2 is a buffer & will try & hold your mash at the correct ph. It will buffer up & down, so can be used on any grain bill.
Add your salts for the water profile you are chasing & then use PH5.2, if required, to either lift or drop your PH.

cheers Ross

 

[Florian]

How far does it buffer? I have recently installed a low wastage direct flow reverse osmosis system with alkaline cartridge to the house and brewery, and according to the manufacturer the p.H. is somewhere between 9 and 10. I have used PH5.2 in the last brews but haven't got the right strips to see if it really drops down that far.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

florian - your water pH is pretty much irrelevant to the question. you need to actually test your mash pH and see whats going on... then you can decide what and if any corrective action needs to be taken.

water composition matters... the actual water ph does not very much.

 

[Florian]

Cheers for that. Will just add my salts then to get to the desired profile and check the pH once I get the opportunity.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Thats the trick. if its an RO system, then its most likely stripping out pretty much everything in the water... Then you have an "alkaline cartridge" the purpose of which i dont know, but i assume it is to keep the pH of your water a bit above 7 and stop it corroding your pipes. I cant imagine its actually adding or would need to add very much at all to do its job. But alkalinity as a general rule is bad SO

For mine, i would, if you can, take the RO water from before the cartridge - call it absolutely neutral and build profiles from there... Basically add some calcium, and mix it up between gypsum and/or calcium chloride depending on the beer. BUT, i suspect that the alkaline cartridge doesn't add all that much alkalinity anyway.... Dont need to add much to get a pH change in completely stripped water... So you might not need very much at all to overcome the cartridge's effect, even if you take water straight from your tap.

Thats a bit of guess work on my part though, i have no actual experience with water treated in this way. You should definitely invest in some pH strips and test your mash though... At least until you get decent handle on how things all stack up with your new water source.

 

[Florian]

To be honest I think that Alkaline cartridge is a bit of a hokus pokus gimmick that actually doesn't do much, I think they are trying to jump on that pi water train, although they don't mention pi water. Anyway, it came with the system and i have noticed that the water tastes much much better than pure RO water, so it must do something, but I don't expect it to do everything they claim.

I have been thinking of moving the T-piece where the line splits to brewery and kitchen to right behind the RO cartridge, thus getting RO water to the brewery and 'wonder water' to the kitchen, but have been hesitant so far purely because the alkalised water tastes so good. But in the end I guess I can achieve the same or better (because more specific) result with salt additions. At least then I know exactly whats in the water and take the guess work out of it. Unless their energy stuff and whatever else they claim is really of benefit.
Anyway, I have brewed five beers so far with the alkalised water plus a bit of Calcium Chloride and PH5.2. Three of them are fermenting at the moment, so I will see how they turn out and go from there.

from the manufacturer blurb:
The fifth and final stage of your water purification is comprised of the Alkaline Enhancing Cartridge.

Negative Ion Ball: Has outstanding optical, magnetic and electrical properties and its energy is higher than other materials. In addition, it carries trace elements and minerals, and emits infrared rays to transform macro-molecular water into micro-molecular water for higher permeability and solubility.

Energy Ball: Permanently generates a micro-electric current, emits infrared rays which adjust the ph lifting by 2 points and producers High Alkaline Enhanced water.

Coconut Silver Carbon: Creates a better tasting water. Because of the unique pore structure of this carbon, it is well suited for chemical adsorption, including VOCs, while reducing chlorine and chemicals that contribute to taste and odour.