Users Of The "no Chiller Method"

[Pumpy]

Bindi,

Overnight, a coupla days, no worries. Problems come when you store them for a bit longer.

cheers

Darren

i have left one for three to four weeks no problem

Pumpy

 

[Darren]

I am sure MAH would be proud to see this go to 15 pages. Plus it has lifted my post count too 8).

All depends on how good your sanitation is to start with. Me I am a lazy brewer so a week would be about it. If you did it in a sterile room it would last for ever.

Staling of the sugars would be a problem with long term storage I would think.

but then many people have no sense of taste.

cheers

Darren

 

[Pumpy]

I am sure MAH would be proud to see this go to 15 pages. Plus it has lifted my post count too 8).

All depends on how good your sanitation is to start with. Me I am a lazy brewer so a week would be about it. If you did it in a sterile room it would last for ever.

Staling of the sugars would be a problem with long term storage I would think.

but then many people have no sense of taste.

cheers

Darren

I am sure MAH would be considering he lifted the topic raised in Ducati Stu posting 'Natural born Chillers'

Darren if you never tried it you will never know !!

Pumpy

 

[Darren]

Pumpy,

Worked in microbiology lab for 20 years. Seen what happens if you make sugar solutions on the bench and store them.

Glad its you

cheers

Darren

 

[Pumpy]

Pumpy,

Worked in microbiology lab for 20 years. Seen what happens if you make sugar solutions on the bench and store them.

Glad its you

cheers

Darren

I Cant argue with that Darren

Any adverse affects on the human body ???

I have a freind in Peru and the women chew up a leaf spit it in to a cup made from a leaf bury it in the ground and allow it to ferment and it is quite a popular drink .

pumpy

 

[Darren]

Dunno Pumpy,

Never drank the mould. Usually just tipped it out.

Those Peruvian women are a crazy bunch arn't they.

Fresh Peruvian spit maybe, not fermented though 8(.

cheers

Darren

 

[bigfridge]

Most beer spoilage organisms will not be killed at 80C. Especially just a brief exposure. You really need 100+ temps for 10 minutes to kill them.

On the first couple of uses you will probably get away with it. After a while though, there will build up of these heat resistant bacteria.

And

Worked in microbiology lab for 20 years. Seen what happens if you make sugar solutions on the bench and store them.

Hi Darren,

You may have worked in a lab for all those years, but what you are saying is simply wrong. Heat is commonly used to pasturise beer in a brewery.

After the wort has been boiled it is sterile - as far as wort spoiling organisms are concerned. Any organisms introduced in the filling process will be killed by the high temperatures used. This is why breweries have flash and tunnel pasteurizers.

But this is not a hit & miss affair. The actual time and temperature can be calculated so that the time and energy is not wasted.

Because much less time is needed to kill organisms the higher the temperature a 'pasteurization unit' is defined as holding the beer (or wort) at 60 Deg C for one minute. 14-15 pasteurization units are required for beer pasteurization, so as long as the wort (and the cube) were held above 60 C for 15 minutes there is no chance of infection.

Of course hot filling and the slow cooling of the cubes results in much higher temperatures for a long period of time giving an enormous number of pasteurization units as it is an exponential equation. As an example while 15 mins is required at 60 C, only 2 mins are required at 66 Deg C.

Weizguy, all that I can think of is that some part of the cube was insulated from the heat and some introduced bugs survived.

We have made many thousands of litres of NNL wort packs and have not heard of any problems, but we are very carefull to ensure that all internal surfaces of the cube get very hot - particularly the lid/handle and the space behind the tap plug. We also soak the lids in idophour to clean up any external nooks and crannies.

This does require a fair bit of turning during cooling but it is worth it for the peace of mind that it gives.

David

 

[KoNG]

I confess , I am a user !!!! .......................Of the No Chiller method


Pumpy

Pumpy i think you could do with a smaller cube... or maybe brew a little more volume... :lol:
thats one hell of a squeeeze

 

[Weizguy]

<abbrev>
Weizguy, all that I can think of is that some part of the cube was insulated from the heat and some introduced bugs survived.

We have made many thousands of litres of NNL wort packs and have not heard of any problems, but we are very carefull to ensure that all internal surfaces of the cube get very hot - particularly the lid/handle and the space behind the tap plug. We also soak the lids in idophour to clean up any external nooks and crannies.

This does require a fair bit of turning during cooling but it is worth it for the peace of mind that it gives.

David </abbrev>

David,

I hope U didn't get the impression that I thought the NNL cube was to blame. I just mentioned that fact to clarify that the cube was clean when I got it, and I must have mis-handled the process.

I prob didn't heat the handle enough. Lesson learned (and there goes my deposit for the cube, too :lol: ).

Darren, were U repeatedly exposed to ergot (a rye fungus, for those who are wondering)?
I am also interested to know why U need to increase your post count, with irrelevant info that would best be sent by pm (Peruvian spit reply).

Seth out

 

[Pumpy]

I confess , I am a user !!!! .......................Of the No Chiller method


Pumpy

Pumpy i think you could do with a smaller cube... or maybe brew a little more volume... :lol:
thats one hell of a squeeeze

Your right Kong those red marks on the inside of my Knees took a bit of explaining .

Pumpy

 

[T.D.]

I too have done a couple of "no chill" brews of late,but I would not do a "no chill" lager
But hell perhaps you can.

Batz,

I've brewed 5 lagers with the no chiller method, and I can tell you they have ALL been better beers than any lagers I had done previously with an immersion chiller. Maybe I have just honed the rest of my brewing practices during that time, but the no-chiller method certainly hasn't had negative effects on my lagers. In my opinion, if it works for ales it works for lagers too - after all the difference between these two beer types is in the fermentation...

Re the sanitation thing etc, I must have done well over 10 no chillers by now and have had no problems. My method of cleaning/sanitising is to rinse the cube out with hot water after it is emptied, and then soak it in napisan. Then I give it a good dose of iodophor when the time comes to put hot wort in it. Time will tell I guess, but I am confident that if your cleaning and sanitation are anal enough you will not have a problem.

 

[Darren]

Most beer spoilage organisms will not be killed at 80C. Especially just a brief exposure. You really need 100+ temps for 10 minutes to kill them.

On the first couple of uses you will probably get away with it. After a while though, there will build up of these heat resistant bacteria.

And

Worked in microbiology lab for 20 years. Seen what happens if you make sugar solutions on the bench and store them.

Hi Darren,

You may have worked in a lab for all those years, but what you are saying is simply wrong. Heat is commonly used to pasturise beer in a brewery.

After the wort has been boiled it is sterile - as far as wort spoiling organisms are concerned. Any organisms introduced in the filling process will be killed by the high temperatures used. This is why breweries have flash and tunnel pasteurizers.

But this is not a hit & miss affair. The actual time and temperature can be calculated so that the time and energy is not wasted.

Because much less time is needed to kill organisms the higher the temperature a 'pasteurization unit' is defined as holding the beer (or wort) at 60 Deg C for one minute. 14-15 pasteurization units are required for beer pasteurization, so as long as the wort (and the cube) were held above 60 C for 15 minutes there is no chance of infection.

Of course hot filling and the slow cooling of the cubes results in much higher temperatures for a long period of time giving an enormous number of pasteurization units as it is an exponential equation. As an example while 15 mins is required at 60 C, only 2 mins are required at 66 Deg C.

We have made many thousands of litres of NNL wort packs and have not heard of any problems, but we are very carefull to ensure that all internal surfaces of the cube get very hot - particularly the lid/handle and the space behind the tap plug. We also soak the lids in idophour to clean up any external nooks and crannies.

This does require a fair bit of turning during cooling but it is worth it for the peace of mind that it gives.

David

Hi David,

Having worked in a lab for 20 years means I know that what you just wrote is only half correct. As you are obviously aware milk is pasteurised and will spoil within a couple of days of opening. Milk doesn't go into second hand containers for that reason. Milk is nutrient rich, just like wort.

In a brewery using that uses pasteurisation (read big brewery) the pasteurisation occurs AFTER fermentation, furthermore the beer doesnot comes in contact with air. Probably the main reason it is pasteurised in the first place is to kill yeast so it doesn't accumulate and overcarbonate bottles.

Now, what we are discussing here is unfermented wort stored in second-hand plastic container. Plastic is a poor conducter of heat, and you would need to stand the jerry upside down for at least 10 minutes at boiling to sanitise. Plastic is the perfect medium for accumulation of microbial flora, especially in the handle where you cannot scrub.

I am not saying your process is poor, just that heatining a second hand jerry to sanitise is poor practice. Especially unfermented wort!!

cheers

Darren

 

[Hopsta]

Pumpy,

Worked in microbiology lab for 20 years. Seen what happens if you make sugar solutions on the bench and store them.

Glad its you

cheers

Darren

I Cant argue with that Darren

Any adverse affects on the human body ???

I have a freind in Peru and the women chew up a leaf spit it in to a cup made from a leaf bury it in the ground and allow it to ferment and it is quite a popular drink .

pumpy

We should pass this information onto Chris White from Whitelabs...
I can see it now "WLP900 - Peruvian Spit Ale Yeast"

 

[Darren]

Just rinse the cube out, and allow the hot wort to sanitise it!

QED
Seth out

[post="115536"][/post]​

What you're espousing Weiz is very much akin to utilising a used condom. h34r:

Warren -

[post="115552"][/post]​

Thanks Warren,

I didn't mean to sound that I'm advocating poor practice.
I was just trying to give Brent a (weak) possible explanation for the "less sanitising" comment.

Maybe I should keep quiet while all these literal-minded AHBers are online.

Naaaahh!

...and they did recycle condoms back in the days when they made connies of pig gut, and didn't know better.

Seth out

Weizguy,

Was my post any worse than some of your posts?

cheers

Darren

 

[DJR]

I too have done a couple of "no chill" brews of late,but I would not do a "no chill" lager
But hell perhaps you can.

Batz,

I've brewed 5 lagers with the no chiller method, and I can tell you they have ALL been better beers than any lagers I had done previously with an immersion chiller. Maybe I have just honed the rest of my brewing practices during that time, but the no-chiller method certainly hasn't had negative effects on my lagers. In my opinion, if it works for ales it works for lagers too - after all the difference between these two beer types is in the fermentation...

Re the sanitation thing etc, I must have done well over 10 no chillers by now and have had no problems. My method of cleaning/sanitising is to rinse the cube out with hot water after it is emptied, and then soak it in napisan. Then I give it a good dose of iodophor when the time comes to put hot wort in it. Time will tell I guess, but I am confident that if your cleaning and sanitation are anal enough you will not have a problem.

Same story here - i have done 4 no-chiller AG's now, 2 lagers and 2 pale ales. The lagers are fine, the break is quite good and they are really quite clear, considering how cloudy my runoff usually is. I don't know if i'm sensitive to DMS but i haven't tasted any off flavours in the finished product.

I use the same method, fill with warm-hot water and napisan after use, wash out well, store with a bit of met in the bottom, then rinse out and sterilise with iodophor before running the wort in at about 80 degrees. No spontaneous ferments yet. Mine wasn't a second hand jerry though, it was a willow 20L blue one that has only had no-chill worts so far.

 

[Batz]

Well I may give a lager a go sometime to see.
I did a Pilsner last and I was not confident enough to try to no chill on that,to say ales and lagers are the same apart from fermentation T.D. is not quite correct.
I make many changes when brewing a pilsner or lager,believe me a true pilsner is one of the most difficult beers to brew,any tiny off flavour will show up.
Ales will hide these in there malt and hops,having said this I have not tried a pilsner with the no chill so I am not really qualified to give advise just my opinion.

Cheers
Batz

 

[T.D.]

Well I may give a lager a go sometime to see.
I did a Pilsner last and I was not confident enough to try to no chill on that,to say ales and lagers are the same apart from fermentation T.D. is not quite correct.
I make many changes when brewing a pilsner or lager,believe me a true pilsner is one of the most difficult beers to brew,any tiny off flavour will show up.
Ales will hide these in there malt and hops,having said this I have not tried a pilsner with the no chill so I am not really qualified to give advise just my opinion.

Cheers
Batz

I see what you are saying, but a lot of the reason why you can detect off flavours easier in a lager than an ale is a facet of fermentation, and certainly not the chilling method. There are also a number of ale styles that are essentially identical to lagers apart from the yeast. Regardless, I see no reason for the no chiller method to be any less successful for lagers than ales. Give it a try, you won't be disappointed!

 

[KoNG]

I am also interested to know why U need to increase your post count, with irrelevant info that would best be sent by pm (Peruvian spit reply).

Seth out

Post count is directly related to penis size..! h34r:

 

[Kai]

Hi David,

Having worked in a lab for 20 years means I know that what you just wrote is only half correct. As you are obviously aware milk is pasteurised and will spoil within a couple of days of opening. Milk doesn't go into second hand containers for that reason. Milk is nutrient rich, just like wort.

Milk is also only held at 72C for 15 seconds. When someone starts trying to HTST pasteurise their wort and store it for a while, then I'll worry.

Within a couple days of opening, my cubes of botulism are happily fermenting away. With yeast. Non-wild yeast.

 

[Darren]

Some interesting articles here

http://www.asbcnet.org/journal/abstracts/1996/0103-03a.htm

and here:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...p;dopt=Abstract

Anyone have access to them? I would be very interested to read them if you do.

cheers

Darren