Unusual fermentation advice

[RelaxedBrewer]

However there are situations where it might be useful. If you brew over gravity and then dilute it a bit you can increase the volume of beer you can make in a certain size fermentation vessel. I'm sure I've read about big commercial breweries doing this to increase production capacity without increasing the real estate needed. Although there are a lot of myths about what megaswill breweries do so take it with a grain of salt.

I agree and have added cooled deoxygenated water to dilute before.
However adding oxygen after fermentation has started is recommended against as it is known to cause stale (cardboard) flavours. Granted 2 days in is not very long but still risky.

 

[Dan Pratt]

Wtf..... You have been advised to ferment at 36c.....huh? No wonder he is worried about infection and then adding water to eliminate that beer taste....huh.....please. So if you went with this advise your beer will be awful from excessive high fermentation temps and then diluting your beer with water to the brim....bad advice.

 

[verysupple]

I agree and have added cooled deoxygenated water to dilute before.
However adding oxygen after fermentation has started is recommended against as it is known to cause stale (cardboard) flavours. Granted 2 days in is not very long but still risky.

Yeah, there's still a risk, I guess. But it seems much less risky than racking a beer after fermentation is complete when the yeast are unlikely to take up the oxygen introduced. I don't rack to secondary for a bunch of reasons, but many people do and they don't seem to complain about fast staling/poor shelf life.

Don't get me wrong, I agree and wouldn't recommend introducing oxygen after fermentation has started if it's avoidable. I just think there are many other things homebrewers need to worry about before they get down to that item on the list.

 

[O-beer-wan-kenobi]

I found a recipe online for a Hoegaarden clone, bu t didn't understand the instruction to add the orange zest and coriander seeds on 'top up day' so I emailed them to ask. The reply is copied and pasted below as a quote.

Has anyone heard of this way of fermenting? Why would anyone ferment using this procedure?

Im assuming this is the website for the recipe? http://www.thbs.intas.net/kit_recipes.htm#HEHOERGAARDEN_
They talk about topping up on the instructions page http://www.thbs.intas.net/pv_kit_instructions.htm

1. 
   Keep in a warm place or use an immersion or belt heater to maintain a constant temperature (20-24 ºC is ideal). Allow to ferment for 2 days, then top up to the bottom of the thread in the neck with cold water, thus minimising the remaining air gap. it is important to top up before fermentation has ended so that the remaining air space is filled with carbon dioxide. If late topping up add a table spoonful of sugar to promote further fermentation.
   
2. 
   Reseal the lid and allow to ferment right out. If using a heater turn it off after a further 2 days Fermentation. To avoid damage to immersion heaters make sure the heater is turned off each time you remove it from the fermenter.
   

 

[verysupple]

Hmmm, after reading the whole instruction set I don't think it's terrible advice, just a tad unnecessary. They recommend bottling after 10 - 14 days. If left undisturbed I can't see a lot of oxidation happening in that time. If you shake it up, well that's a different story.

 

[Camo6]

Wtf..... You have been advised to ferment at 36c.....huh? No wonder he is worried about infection and then adding water to eliminate that beer taste....huh.....please. So if you went with this advise your beer will be awful from excessive high fermentation temps and then diluting your beer with water to the brim....bad advice.

Nah. The 36*c was just my little tongue in cheek contribution to the thread. The initial post contains the dubious advice.

 

[TheWiggman]

Wow that page looks like it was made in 1995. I can almost hear Ace of Base by looking at it.

This is the first I've ever heard of 'topping up'. I'm guessing it's a habit the owner has had since he received the advice in early days of brewing. Old habits die hard. Personally, I think the benefits are far outweighed by the risks and see no real purpose. Not to mention it's extra effort for essentially zero gain. You're also brewing a fixed volume so this advice doesn't apply to every fermenter out there larger than 25l total for kit brewers. Which is most of them.

 

[Beer Ninja]

Im assuming this is the website for the recipe? http://www.thbs.intas.net/kit_recipes.htm#HEHOERGAARDEN_
They talk about topping up on the instructions page http://www.thbs.intas.net/pv_kit_instructions.htm

1. 
   Keep in a warm place or use an immersion or belt heater to maintain a constant temperature (20-24 ºC is ideal). Allow to ferment for 2 days, then top up to the bottom of the thread in the neck with cold water, thus minimising the remaining air gap. it is important to top up before fermentation has ended so that the remaining air space is filled with carbon dioxide. If late topping up add a table spoonful of sugar to promote further fermentation.
   
2. 
   Reseal the lid and allow to ferment right out. If using a heater turn it off after a further 2 days Fermentation. To avoid damage to immersion heaters make sure the heater is turned off each time you remove it from the fermenter.
   

Yes, that's the website.

I got a reply from them after asking where the krausen was meant to go and got the reply 'krausen?' - They obviously do things a bit different there....

 

[Online Brewing Supplies]

Yes, that's the website.

'krausen?'

Probably thought you were German. Hope he didnt mention the war .

 

[indica86]

4. Close the lid firmly and fit the air lock, ensuring it contains about 10-15mm of water. Fermentation should commence within 12 hours. If there is no bubbling through the air lock within this time remove the lid and look for froth on the surface of the brew, if there is froth on the surface this indicates that fermentation has started and you do not have an air tight seal on the barrel, a little Vaseline on the rim of the barrel will give a better seal without over tightening.

I like that one too. Very important to remove the lid as often as possible.

 

[pcmfisher]

ImageUploadedByAussie Home Brewer1399291015.588200.jpg

Cling wrap is responsible for some terrible things, but it's clearly an effective fermentation tool.

That be mum.

That be pop.

That be cat.

 

[Greg.L]

The funny thing about the AHB forum is that the idea that oxygen should be excluded from the fermenter seems to be totally discredited. When discussing SS fermenters, the assumption is that you buy these expensive devices because you don't like the smell of plastic. People actually buy SS fermenters and use gladwrap for the lid, totally amazing. That SS fermenters are used because they are oxygen impermeable seems fanciful, why would you need to keep oxygen out?. There was a recent photo of an infection with the gladwrap cover showing, no-one says "hey, that infection floating on the surface needs oxygen, maybe you shouldn't use gladwrap anymore." No, everyone seems more concerned with what sort of infection it is; like it matters.

The effort people put into mashing is amazing, incredible recipes with dozens of ingredients, stepped mashing etc. Then for the fermentation these is no care expended at all (except temperature control). Just bung it in a fermenter with no lid and hope for the best. When they strike a recipe with instructions for a careful, oxygen free fermentation they just mock it, with no concept that there is actually a better way to ferment beer than in a half-full fermenter with gladwrap for a lid.

Oh well, so long as most of the fermentations turn out ok I suppose there is no reason to be concerned.

 

[DJ_L3ThAL]

What about those who ferment in a SS fermentor with the proper lid/seal but don't fill it to the brim? Srsly?

 

[mxd]

The funny thing about the AHB forum is that the idea that oxygen should be excluded from the fermenter seems to be totally discredited. When discussing SS fermenters, the assumption is that you buy these expensive devices because you don't like the smell of plastic. People actually buy SS fermenters and use gladwrap for the lid, totally amazing. That SS fermenters are used because they are oxygen impermeable seems fanciful, why would you need to keep oxygen out?. There was a recent photo of an infection with the gladwrap cover showing, no-one says "hey, that infection floating on the surface needs oxygen, maybe you shouldn't use gladwrap anymore." No, everyone seems more concerned with what sort of infection it is; like it matters.

The effort people put into mashing is amazing, incredible recipes with dozens of ingredients, stepped mashing etc. Then for the fermentation these is no care expended at all (except temperature control). Just bung it in a fermenter with no lid and hope for the best. When they strike a recipe with instructions for a careful, oxygen free fermentation they just mock it, with no concept that there is actually a better way to ferment beer than in a half-full fermenter with gladwrap for a lid.

Oh well, so long as most of the fermentations turn out ok I suppose there is no reason to be concerned.

I referred to you as a troll in a thread recently and you didn't think you were, my remark was

"don't feed the trolls, or will get the lecture about glad wrap "

I guess this thread will just add to my belief that where ever possible you will tell people there doing the wrong thing.

 

[indica86]

Then you aren't making beer.
May as well ferment in a terracotta pot.

 

[TheWiggman]

[removed longwinded reply about oxygen and how there is more than one element or microbe in the atmosphere]

I will agree with your final line - if all fermentations turn out ok, and the beer is good, there is no reason to be concerned.

 

[verysupple]

Greg.L, out of curiosity, what do you use to let the CO2 out?

 

[manticle]

The funny thing about the AHB forum is that the idea that oxygen should be excluded from the fermenter seems to be totally discredited. When discussing SS fermenters, the assumption is that you buy these expensive devices because you don't like the smell of plastic. People actually buy SS fermenters and use gladwrap for the lid, totally amazing. That SS fermenters are used because they are oxygen impermeable seems fanciful, why would you need to keep oxygen out?. There was a recent photo of an infection with the gladwrap cover showing, no-one says "hey, that infection floating on the surface needs oxygen, maybe you shouldn't use gladwrap anymore." No, everyone seems more concerned with what sort of infection it is; like it matters.

The effort people put into mashing is amazing, incredible recipes with dozens of ingredients, stepped mashing etc. Then for the fermentation these is no care expended at all (except temperature control). Just bung it in a fermenter with no lid and hope for the best. When they strike a recipe with instructions for a careful, oxygen free fermentation they just mock it, with no concept that there is actually a better way to ferment beer than in a half-full fermenter with gladwrap for a lid.

Oh well, so long as most of the fermentations turn out ok I suppose there is no reason to be concerned.

The funny thing about AHB is the numbers of people willing to try an idea out and offer real world experience. I guess that's contrasted signicantly by people who always know better.

 

[pk.sax]

Gotta take a chill pill here.

Back when I suppose the practices of closed fermentation started, people lived in somewhat less sealed houses. The concept of totally sealing gaps under doors, double glazed windows and climate controlled houses weren't so prevalent. I suppose there was also more mud and grass on the nature strip.

We're living in a bit more sanitised world here and a lot if the time your home environment just doesn't have the microbes required to spoil your brew. Ask someone with a large garden that their brew shed sits in, with fruit trees, animals etc. doesn't mean they don't know anything, just different tools.

Also of note that the use of more effective sanitisers that are easy to just 'spray' on surfaces decreases your risk as well.

Greg might be talking out of his old fart knowledge of how they controlled things, bit of courtesy doesn't go amiss rather than calling him an idiot or troll.

 

[manticle]

A bit of courtesy is good from both sides - simply repeating the same point you've made countless times prior, without acknowledging or responding to pertinent points made by others is discourteous. I know exactly what Greg is talking about and why oxygen is the enemy of beer. I am not a moron who chucks his wort in a bucket and hopes for the best and neither are many other brewers here.

Greg has a lot to contribute but on this particular issue (which is far from the topic raised by the OP) he is frustratingly dogmatic.