Thoughts On Vegetarianism

[manticle]

I eat meat of all kinds (generally speaking).

I don't believe the term 'cruelty free' can be applicable to any type of meat. However I also believe that those responsible for raising creatures for slaughter are responsible for those creatures while they are alive. Yes it's cruel to kill (insofar as cruelty is a human concept) but it's unnecessary to torture or make something live in conditions that are unfathomable to anyone with the smallest conscience.

Intensive farming is quite sick, hen batteries are quite disturbing, forcefeeding geese for luxurious pate is plainly and simply fucked up.

The closer a person can get to the source of their food (whether farming or killing) the better. Not always possible I grant but somewhere I hope to get to one day.

I don't believe all life (any life really) is sacred. Worth protecting yes, but that's a different concept. Animals have, do and will kill other animals to benefit themselves. Has always been, will always be.

As humans we have a conscience and can make decisions based on that. Maybe we are unique in that - I doubt a whale has a moral quandary over whether it should eat krill. So make a decision we should - and I have. I'm comfortable with my position and accept my hypocrisy when I operate outside that position. The best I can do is to accept that hypocrisy and work towards eliminating it. If somebody else's choice is to avoid meat or meat based products then it is not my place to convince them they are wrong. It's not my place to point out the hypocrisy if they kill a mosquito - I have hypocrisy running out of my ears in streams.

I don't believe in absolutes but I do believe in progress and working towards improvement where you see it necessary. Start first with yourself before trying to encourage it in someone else. Recognise nothing and no-one is perfect but everything and everyone could probably be better.

Blah blah - my rambling thoughts but an effort to divert attention from a thread that should always have been about something else.

Have a rant, argue and call each other nutjobs, rednecks and fuckwits. Sorry for swearing.

 

[Brown_hound]

Shit...

I reckon we tandem posted.... there was dead set milliseconds between the posts going up... :lol:

Alot more effort's gone into yours, I will bow out sir...

Can I close my thread?

 

[felon]

My wife is a vego (taste reason not ethical) so I don't get a lot of meat around here. But I really think the big question is... What about CATS?

 

[Lecterfan]

I'm going to fight every primal urge I have here to respond to Felon's question in regards to eating pussy.

Instead I am going to say that I have been impressed with the thought that most people have put into their responses.

I won't waffle on because I don't claim to have any objective truth (and as Manticle suggests maybe there are no absolutes/universals), although I have thousands of words on the issue. It's rewarding to know thereare such thoughful people on the forum though.


I'm going to quit at the cat joke. Like George Costanza - get a giggle then just leave the room. :icon_cheers:



edit: I turned reagrds into regards

 

[Pennywise]

Thanks for starting this manticle. Hopefully the mods delete all the crap that's detracted from my partners idea.

I've been in enough of these discussions to really have had enough of it, not even sure I give a **** anymore. I eat meat, whoopty fuckin doo. Others don't, whoopty fuckin doo. I respect othe peoples decisions that don't affect me, that's about it really.

 

[Hatchy]

Nice work Manticle, I had started typing a post in the other thread & deleted it for being off topic. I never post anything off topic (where's my sarcasm font?)

When I met Mrs Hatchy she was vegetarian, not because she didn't like meat or because she thought it was cruel but because she didn't feel it was right to eat something that she wouldn't be willing/able to kill herself. It seemed like sound logic to me. Unfortunately for her she's too nice for her own good so would cook meat for me which lead to her "testing" the bacon which led her back to being an omnivore.

Anyway, while she was vegetarian she was watching something on TV about how the chooks that we eat are treated. I've been buying free range eggs for as long as I've been buying eggs but I'd never thought about the chooks that we eat. There's an argument that they're treated worse than battery hens. I think it was a lifespan of about 45 days being dosed with hormones so they'd grow quicker living in tiny pens. The roosters get killed at birth & sold to a reptile farm or something I think. I didn't eat chicken for quite some time after that but I'm back on it now.

While I don't think animal cruelty is right, I'm more concerned with the way a lot of humans get treated personally. Indigenous Australians, Palestinians & the Australian cricket team immediately spring to mind.

 

[Effect]

These debates usually end up pretty messy...so from my experience of being in several of these discussions (usually start when everyone gets their meal at a restaurant and notice that my girlfriend's plate and my plate are vegan meals) we have just say one sentence and leave it at that.

If you could live a happy and healthy life without harming anything, why wouldn't you?

 

[manticle]

These debates usually end up pretty messy...

Doesn't need to be a debate. Can just be an expression of what you believe in regards to your own behaviour.

Kind of what I'm hoping but my illusions are thin.

I'm not veg but I am friends with many and was one for a while (while working in kitchens too) so I know the looks and comments you mean. People rabbit (pun not intended) on about how vegetarians want to convert them but most of the waffling conversion attempts seem to come from omnivores in anti-vegetarian rants.

 

[Effect]

Doesn't need to be a debate. Can just be an expression of what you believe in regards to your own behaviour.

I'm happy to have a discussion with people that are open-minded, as in those situations opinions on many topics are able to be influenced. However, in an argument only one opinion is changed, and that is what one thinks of the other...

Cheers
Phil

 

[Ronin]

Messy, pah! We're adults aren't we? More than willing to put my opinions out there in the interests of provoking discussion.

I don't think it was clear from the other thread, I've been vegetarian now for about 8 years. I'm completely healthy too! I really have come to think that it is a completely viable diet. I wasn't sure when I became vegetarian, but the more I learn and the wider my diet becomes the more healthy I feel. I truly think that becoming vegetarian is about education. I have met a lot of people who became vegetarian for all sorts of reasons, mostly ethical, yet gave it up after a year or so, claiming lack of energy. Digging a little deeper it became clear that vegetarian just meant cooking a normal meal for the entire family and then just leaving the meat out.

That doesn't work. It is not an easy lifestyle, and it was much simpler when I just cooked meat, some veg and that was it. it requires a bit of education, normally some expanding of your palate and a bit more planning than a meat eating diet.

So why did I do it? A few reasons, which I'm willing to put out there for criticism.

The first, which I'm not sure if people will understand, is that I kill animals for a living. I'm a research fellow in immunology and for those that don't know what that means, it usually means my day at work starts with killing mice for tissue analysis. This I can justify to myself, not because they are only mice, but because I truly believe that this sort of work is essential, not just for modern medicine but also for improving the welfare of livestock.

So why did this affect my decision to not eat meat? I couldn't justify the death of animals for my pleasure, which is essentially what I have come to believe eating meat is. Nutritionally it isn't necessary, so we eat meat simply because we enjoy the taste of it. I'm sure there's some hypocrisy in there somewhere, given what I do, but call it trying to balance the books, karma, whatever. I'm convinced that what I do at work is more important that killing animals for food.

Over the years I've become more convinced that this diet is the right one for me. I've never tried to convert people who eat meat, although I do believe several things about eating meat, which I'll repeat here for discussion.

If you are going to eat meat, I believe you should be capable of killing the animal and preparing the carcass. I don't mean that people should raise their own livestock or hunt their own food, modern lifestyles have very little room for those activities. But I know many, many people who eat meat but are completely incapable of killing the animal for their own consumption. To me that is absolutely ridiculous. If you can't pull the trigger, you shouldn't eat the meat. I've come to think that given the work that I do, I could now kill an animal if I had to. But I have no desire to eat meat anymore.

The second this I believe is that people should respect what meat is. It isn't meat, it is an animal, and if you are going to take its life then you should care about it's life up to the point that the bolt was fired through it's brain. They should not be raised in unnatural environments, they should not be fed the meat of their own species, and they should not be pumped full of hormones to make them grow unnaturally fast. And if you can't afford to eat as much meat as what you want, given those points, then maybe you should eat less meat, it won't kill you.

the other point is that if you take an animals life because you enjoy eating it, then you should be prepared to use every part of the animal. Liver, heart, muscle, lungs, everything should be eaten. That's what used to happen historically, and it only doesn't happen anymore because meat is so cheap for the reasons in the above paragraph. Animals are raised not like animals, but like commodities.

I also believe that a vegetarian diet is more sustainable and has a lower impact on the environment. As was mentioned in the other thread, the energy cost of growing meat is simply not sustainable in a ever growing planet. Is the life I'm living flawless? Of course not. Is that a reason not to reduce my impact on the environment? Not by a long shot.

As far as beer is concerned, I've never used gelatine nor isinglass. I don't see a reason for it. I have used PVPP, and I now filter my beer. It is perfectly clear enough for me and nothing has died for me to enjoy it. Guilt free enjoyment...

I know this is very long, and if you are reading the thread you are probably interested in peoples opinions.

James

 

[jonocarroll]

1. Eating meat is not at all required for health. There have never been any bulletins or recommendations saying that "we need to eat more meat (for health)". Not from the medical community, not from health agencies. Not even from the powerful meat industry that has ever dared to make such an outrageous claim. In face, the converse is true; every recommendation you have ever seen always stresses that we need to eat less meat and more fruits and vegetables.

2. There is no nutrient in meat that cannot be found in a vegetarian diet. No one can deny this.

3. There is no disease where eating meat is required for the treatment or cure of the disease.

4. Therefore, eating meat is absolutely unnecessary.

5. Eating meat causes death to other animals, obviously. And, despite attempts to make slaughter "humane", whether it be "kosher", "halal", or otherwise, it quite probably, even certainly, causes stress and pain as well.

6. Therefore, eating meat is immoral and unethical. And abhorently selfish, since the person who eats meat does so only for the hedonistic and temporary satisfaction of his taste buds. Especially when there are so many vegetarian and tasteful alternatives (from meatless and healthful soy products to traditional Indian dishes).

7. There is more than enough cruely in the world as it is; there is no need to add to it unnecessarily.

 

[jonocarroll]

On the other hand...

 

[Infinitee]

I wholeheartedly agree with QB.

I've tried vegetarianism (smartly, with all the sprouted nuts, beans imaginable; balanced protein quantities and a decent metabolism) and you can indeed survive.
I even think it's better for a clear state of mind.
But, I don't think the body of any vegetarian, vegan should be without the odd bit of cartilage, (chicken foot soup) cod liver oil or lard (or carnitine when avo's aren't in season).

There are some chemicals that our bodies have long been trained towards absorbing.
We were once fruit eating tree monkeys and developed a sense for the ethanol expressed by ripened and old fruit.
But for 200, 000 years intervening, we ate anything that moved, right down to the insects, upto mammoths and whales.
And their Unique, complex, dense proteins, absorbable fats and abundance of minerals

Have Acculturated us to meat.

So while vegetarianism is peacefully ennobled, i do honestly believe it Can malnourish and kill (if your body isn't fit to adapt to it) and I wouldn't take a chance on another human being.
My kids can be vego anytime they decide, but i'll forcefeed them cod liver oil and rendered bacon fat while they reside under my roof.
C'mon vego's, you deserve cod liver oil too, you know it's true.

This all from a man who slaughters, yet raises his own, insects, guinea pigs, chooks, fish and sheep.
And there is no reason I cannot be the best friend of my pet till the very second I well up the courage, leap up and bash the daylights out of another sentient mammal ... which gives me months more of practical, survival products in my real struggle for existence.

Love n respect to all, but that is how it is.
Anything else is hiding.

 

[Brown_hound]

If you are going to eat meat, I believe you should be capable of killing the animal and preparing the carcass.

Liver, heart, muscle, lungs, everything should be eaten.

G'day there James... Hope you're doing well..

In response to the above I have a question... Why?

Why should you be capable of killing, gutting, skinning, filleting said animal just to eat it?
Humans (society) have moved past that god bless our cotton socks...

Forgive me but is that not why abattoir workers are here? Good strong and solid industry...

I go to sleep at night resting assured that 100% of every single animal in an Australian abattoir, is used in some way... Returned to Mother Earth... Inedible bits and pieces are ground to create blood and bone for gardening for eg.

Why in God's name should we eat offal? Why the hell should we eat anything? Oh, because we choose to... We can.... Offal? I don't like the texture and the taste.. So why the hell should I haved to eat it to be "politically correct"?

I'm healthy...

I may eat a bit too much crap, but for goodness sakes... I choose everything I eat according to my health..


The point you're missing is there's no right, and there's no wrong!!! The ideals you've outlined above are plain... Clean misinformed.


Hound

 

[manticle]

If you are going to eat meat, I believe you should be capable of killing the animal and preparing the carcass. I don't mean that people should raise their own livestock or hunt their own food, modern lifestyles have very little room for those activities. But I know many, many people who eat meat but are completely incapable of killing the animal for their own consumption. To me that is absolutely ridiculous. If you can't pull the trigger, you shouldn't eat the meat. I've come to think that given the work that I do, I could now kill an animal if I had to. But I have no desire to eat meat anymore.

The second this I believe is that people should respect what meat is. It isn't meat, it is an animal, and if you are going to take its life then you should care about it's life up to the point that the bolt was fired through it's brain. They should not be raised in unnatural environments, they should not be fed the meat of their own species, and they should not be pumped full of hormones to make them grow unnaturally fast. And if you can't afford to eat as much meat as what you want, given those points, then maybe you should eat less meat, it won't kill you.

the other point is that if you take an animals life because you enjoy eating it, then you should be prepared to use every part of the animal. Liver, heart, muscle, lungs, everything should be eaten. That's what used to happen historically, and it only doesn't happen anymore because meat is so cheap for the reasons in the above paragraph. Animals are raised not like animals, but like commodities.

I couldn't fault these points.

 

[barls]

wont somebody think about the cries of the carrots????

 

[Brown_hound]

I couldn't fault these points.

To re-enforce what I'm trying to say... I wouldn't for a second hesitate in killing any form of livestock (except my dog... Don't plan on eating it). I'd skin, gut, de-bone and fillet most creatures put in front of me without too much of a ruckus....

I cannot for a second understand why we should have to?

To have to eat the other bits and pieces? To justify an animals death? Ridiculous....

I will, however, happily eat the tomatoes, carrots, lettuce, onions and garlic, which these animal's nutrients provide us with...

As I said... 100 percent of the animal... Every animal goes either into our gut, our pets gut or the fertilisers required for our crops....

I'm not arguing Manticle... But I simply can't see a reason to eat something I don't like.... Why in God's name would I drink an infected brew? Because I've wasted my money otherwise? Maybe... For choice? Not a chance in hell...

Consumerism gives us a choice.... I don't choose liver....

Hound

 

[Malted]

I see nothing wrong with 'debate' or 'argument', so long as they are reasoned.
Well done Manticle for starting this thread (I don't agree with everything you have said but that is the beauty of discussion); I was concerned that the original topic had gone astray to the annoyance of Pennywise (I had said I meant no intentional offence).

There are some great and informative posts on various aspects and beliefs. Brilliant.
Spirited discusion, I love it. I also love people posting 'emotional' facts; I am more empirical than emotional myself... {where's that dammed fists up emoticon?}


Edit: How the hell am I supposed to get any work done tomorrow when I will be thinking about how interesting this discussion is!!!?

 

[manticle]

@brownhound:

You don't have to.

I have no inclination to make you or anyone ese do what they don't feel they should short of not killing others to make their bedroom look pretty.

I believe those things in regards to how they affect my own behaviour and conscience which was the point of my first post.

I have my conscience and everyone else hopefully has theirs. I make no claims to anyone else's conscience or behaviour.

 

[DUANNE]

In response to the above I have a question... Why?

Why should you be capable of killing, gutting, skinning, filleting said animal just to eat it?
Humans (society) have moved past that god bless our cotton socks...

Forgive me but is that not why abattoir workers are here?

so paying an assasin to do the dirty work is better? if you dont want the blood on your own hands then really should you eat meat?