The Next Step - Replacing The Kit Converter

[whitegoose]

Hi all,

I've made a handful of kit & kilo brews now with pretty good results and I'm absolutely itching to take it one step further. One small step further anyway.

The brew I'm drinking now is a BrewCraft Munich Lager can with a WestBrew Kit Converter (60 German Lager) and I added some Hallertau finishing hops to the wort which were steeped (is that the right word?) for 15 minutes.

What I'm keen to do is recreate the beer but replace the Kit Converter with hand-picked (from the shelf) ingredients... so can anyone help me out with the ingredients, quantities, and steps to do so?

My understanding (from this forum and a book I have) is that the Kit Converter probably contains some combination of dextrose, dried malt extract and maybe corn syrup or something and some hop pellets. Is this right?

If I were to try to create something comparable what would I use? Light DME? How much? Any Dark or Wheat DME? Would I actually use dextrose or just DME? What about corn syrup? Can I just buy some hop pellets and wack them in the wort? I'd need to do that to balance out the sweetness of the malt right? And they'd need to be boiled with the wort as opposed to the finishing hops that are just steeped and added before sealing up the fermenter? So many questions!!


Thanks heaps for any help...

 

[RetsamHsam]

When I was at this stage I decided I wanted to do away with the dextrose and other simple sugars and go all-malt..

So if I was you I would replace the kit-converter with Light/Amber/Dark DME depending on how dark a beer you are after, and as for your hop additions you can purchase 100g packs from your HB store (which is much cheaper than buying the hop tea-bag thingies) which can either be boiled with your DME or steeped and added to the fermenter as you have been doing.

 

[buttersd70]

Whitegoose. For the most part, you've answered you're own questions.

My understanding (from this forum and a book I have) is that the Kit Converter probably contains some combination of dextrose, dried malt extract and maybe corn syrup or something and some hop pellets. Is this right?

Yes, thats right. Most are a combination of dme, dextrose, and maltodextrin. The proportions vary, depending on which convertor or pack it is. Ones for lighter style beers have more dex, ones for fuller boddied beers have more malt. I don't know the specifics of the one you have been using, but a very common mix (which is the same as the coopers BE2) is 250g malt, 250g maltodextrin, and 500g dex.

If I were to try to create something comparable what would I use? Light DME? How much? Any Dark or Wheat DME? Would I actually use dextrose or just DME? What about corn syrup? Can I just buy some hop pellets and wack them in the wort? I'd need to do that to balance out the sweetness of the malt right? And they'd need to be boiled with the wort as opposed to the finishing hops that are just steeped and added before sealing up the fermenter? So many questions!!

Most kits (not all) are designed with the enhancer packs in mind...meaning that they can handle around 250g of malt before starting to be overly sweet. (some can handle more....it depends on how hopped the tin is.)

So, if you were to replicate the 250/250/500 mix, you could just steep the hop as normal. But, to understand what each ingredient brings to the table...

Malt....adds alcohol, but doesn't ferment completely, so also adds body and flavour.
dextrose....adds alcohol, but ferments fully, leaving no flavour or body. Due to the fact that alcohol is less dense than water, lots of dextrose will not only not leave body, it will reduce the body.
maltodextrin....leaves no flavour. Adds body. Used to counteract the lack of body from using large amounts of dextrose.

So, maltodextrin and dextrose are used in conjuction with one another....not because it's better, but because it's cheap. (dextrose does have it's place though. In high alcohol beers with a lot of malt, dextrose (or other simple, highly fermentable sugars) is sometimes used to deliberately thin the body down, where an all malt beer would end up too heavy in body. This isn't necessary in most 'normal' circumstances)

So, if the ratio was changed to include more malt, you could ditch the maltodextrin. If you increase to all malt, you could also ditch the dextrose. You would get a better result, but would need to boil the hops, instead of just steeping, to extract some of the bitterness, particularly if you were to go all malt (which is by far the better option). One of the added benefits of all malt is that because you need to boil hops to offset the additional sweetness, you get the added bonus of additional hop flavour. Boil times vary, but 10-15minutes is common. The amount of hops that you boil comes down to how much bitterness you want to extract from them, and that depends on the Alpha Acid of the hop. Long story short, the higher the AA, the less you need for the same amount of bitterness. For a hop like hallertaur, it would probably be in the region of 15-20g for 15minutes to offset that additional malt. A good rule of thumb for the boil is to add 100g of ldm per L of water (which will give a boil gravity of 1040), and for short boils like this, 2-3L would be sufficient. My advice would be to buy hops that have a specific AA percentage (instead of just a percentage range). That way, even if you don't fully understand alphas and ibu's, you can always post up for advice on quantities and times....and one of the first questions you'll get asked is 'whats the alpha?'

As RetsamHsam said, you could mix light/amber/dark malts, to get more colour in if required.

The other option you have available is to steep grains....but thats another story.

 

[slotmachine]

Sorry to jump in but you've hit on something I've been wondering about.....

If I add say, 250g of extra malt to a coopers kit + 1kg of BE2, how many hops / how long a boil do I need to offset the additonal sweeteness? Is there a formula that can be used? Cheers

 

[whitegoose]

Awesome - thanks for the info!

So it is literally as simple as (famous last words) replacing the kit converter with 1kg DME? And then boiling up some hops in the wort for about 15 minutes? Sweet as. For a simple german style lager would I use just Light DME?

By the way - what does LDM stand for?

Thanks again

 

[chappo1970]

+1 swingingbeef

LDM - Not a silly question but you find what you need here! I struggled with all the acronims as well then someone pointed me to this...

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...;showarticle=17

 

[chappo1970]

Oh! And welcome aboard whitegoose

 

[big78sam]

The other option you have available is to steep grains....but thats another story.

I've recently made the jump from K & K to Kits and bits. You could try this

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...&recipe=471

It's still listed as kit and kilo in the recipe DB but takes the next step with hops, malt extracts and steeping grains. If you've got a thermometer steeping is not actually too hard. I just plunged in. I had to ask a couple of "stupid" questions and thought I'd stuffed it the first time but all my brews have turned out OK in the end. People on here have been more than willing to provide advice.

Tried my first partial the other day. I won't go back now...

Oh and if you do give this recipe a go, remember you're using a lager yeast and the ideal temp is 11-15 so I struggled a bit in the heat.

 

[buttersd70]

sorry goose...ldm, dlm, ldme, dme.....light dry malt extract

Sorry to jump in but you've hit on something I've been wondering about.....

If I add say, 250g of extra malt to a coopers kit + 1kg of BE2, how many hops / how long a boil do I need to offset the additonal sweeteness? Is there a formula that can be used? Cheers

Yes, it can be worked out, but the calculations are very complex...but for such a small addition it's not usually worked out with that much precision. 'couple of minutes, close enough'.

A very rough way of getting into the ballpark, is that you would be looking at about 1 IBU for each additional 100g of malt added, to rebalance the sweetness (without adding much additional bitterness. This will just stop it from becoming sweeter). That can be worked out in software, or in an online hopping calculator

Hope that helps.

 

[reformed99]

Cheers butters, just what I wanted to know.

 

[whitegoose]

Thanks again people, really, really helpful

Boil times vary, but 10-15minutes is common. The amount of hops that you boil comes down to how much bitterness you want to extract from them, and that depends on the Alpha Acid of the hop. Long story short, the higher the AA, the less you need for the same amount of bitterness. For a hop like hallertaur, it would probably be in the region of 15-20g for 15minutes to offset that additional malt. A good rule of thumb for the boil is to add 100g of ldm per L of water (which will give a boil gravity of 1040), and for short boils like this, 2-3L would be sufficient. My advice would be to buy hops that have a specific AA percentage (instead of just a percentage range). That way, even if you don't fully understand alphas and ibu's, you can always post up for advice on quantities and times....and one of the first questions you'll get asked is 'whats the alpha?'

Some more questions!

1. When you say all malt do you mean even replacing the kit can with malt? Or just using the can + DME (no dextrose etc)?

2. I've read that hops for bittering sometimes need to be boiled for up to 60 minutes... Just curious about the difference between that and the 15 minutes you've suggested (I'm trying to get a hold of some of the science behind all this). Is it related to the hop content of the kit can VS brewing with no can?

3. If I boil my hops in 3L of water with 300g of DME, once I've finished boiling the hops how do I get the other 700g+ of DME into the wort? Just pour it in? I'm assuming I need to get the hops out of there? I'm not really sure of the process - do I actually need 2 pots (1 to boil the hops in, and 1 to boil the can contents and the rest of the DME in, and then strain the first pot into the second)? I'd really appreciate some direction. I have seen instructions that say to just boil everything together (can, DME, hops), adding different hops at various points throughout the boil - is this not as good a method as the 100g DME per L water method?

Any advice appreciated... Hopefully that will be it, then I can get down to the LHBS and get cracking!

 

[whitegoose]

Oh! And welcome aboard whitegoose

Thanks, good to be here, so much info!!

 

[buttersd70]

Thanks again people, really, really helpful



Some more questions!

1. When you say all malt do you mean even replacing the kit can with malt? Or just using the can + DME (no dextrose etc)?

2. I've read that hops for bittering sometimes need to be boiled for up to 60 minutes... Just curious about the difference between that and the 15 minutes you've suggested (I'm trying to get a hold of some of the science behind all this). Is it related to the hop content of the kit can VS brewing with no can?

3. If I boil my hops in 3L of water with 300g of DME, once I've finished boiling the hops how do I get the other 700g+ of DME into the wort? Just pour it in? I'm assuming I need to get the hops out of there? I'm not really sure of the process - do I actually need 2 pots (1 to boil the hops in, and 1 to boil the can contents and the rest of the DME in, and then strain the first pot into the second)? I'd really appreciate some direction. I have seen instructions that say to just boil everything together (can, DME, hops), adding different hops at various points throughout the boil - is this not as good a method as the 100g DME per L water method?

Any advice appreciated... Hopefully that will be it, then I can get down to the LHBS and get cracking!

1. I was referring to the kit + DME. You can replace the kit, as you said, but this would require a longer boil for the bitterness, and is Extract brewing. That's the next step up.
2. Bittering additions are usually done at 60 mins, you are correct...but this is when you have replaced the kit as well, so you are doing all the bittering. In this case, you are only "topping up" the bittering, the bulk of the bitterness is alrady in the kit.
3. 2 options here...first is to strain the hops out, then disolve the rest of the malt in the hot liquid, then add to the fermenter. second (easiest) option is, after the boil s done, just add the rest of the malt in and stir to disolve, then just chuck the lot into the fermenter, hops and all. The hops will sink out into the trub by the time fermentation is done. Adding everything into the boil will give a very high concentration of malt, and the bitterness won't extract as well from the hops. It will also cause the malt to darken during the boil, and it will drive off any flavour and/or aroma of hops that are in the kit tin itself. If you are boiling in a large volume (eg 12-15L, or more), and you want to deliberately kill the flavour of the tin (which some guys do), then you can certainly boil the tin....but this is a slightly different process. The guys that do this do so to get bitterness from the tin to use less hops, but don't want the flavour of the tin itself in the final beer. It's basically an extract beer (instead of a tweaked kit), because all the flavour of the original tin itself is being deliberately driven away, and you're just getting a headstart on the bittering. BribieG is a master of this process.

Hope that makes sense.

 

[whitegoose]

Okay so am I on the right track here?

Brewcraft Munich Lager can
Light DME 1kg
Tettnanger Hop pellets 15g (boil 20 mins)
Hallertauer Hop pellets 15g (boil 2 mins)

1. Boil Tettnanger hops in 3L water and 300g Light DME for 15 minutes
2. Add Hallertauer hops to boil for 5 more minutes, turn off gas
3. Add remaining DME to pot and dissolve
4. Dump whole lot into fermenter
5. Top up to 22L, cool down, pitch yeast, we're away...​

And I've gathered that it is possible to make a good guess of the starting gravity of a recipe... can anyone tell me what this is likely to be? I'd like the ABV to be between 4% and 5% and I have a feeling this recipe could be starting too low.

 

[buttersd70]

looks good, goose...just one minor thing...boil times are normally expressed as time from end of the boil, not the time between the additions.....so a 15 and a 5 would mean the first one is boiled for 10 minutes, then the second addition goes in for 5, meaning that the first addition had 15 minutes overall. It's a countdown from the end. But yes, your method is correct. You can also mix the tin in the hot liquid right at the end just before putting into the fermenter, just to disolve it.

in this case your OG would be approximately 1041....fg will depend on the yeast, but lets say aprox 1010 (big assumption, here...may well be different.)....this means abv of 4.06% at the end of fermentation. The fermentation that causes carbonation in the bottle will add another 0.3-0.5% (depending on to what level you prime it), so you're looking at 4.3-4.5%ABV in the bottle. (very roughly).

 

[whitegoose]

Okay so I've finally got the ingredients together to make this brew - slightly modified recipe to include some carapils...

Brewcraft Munich Lager can
Light DME 1kg
Dextrose 100g
Carapils 250g (steeped 30 minutes)
Tettnanger Hop pellets 15g 5.6% (@ 15 mins)
Hallertauer Hop pellets 15g 3.0% (@ flameout)​

I plan to make it on Monday but I'm concerned it will end up too bitter... The Brewcraft Munich Lager can says on the side of it that the "typical analysis" is between 25-35 EBU (which is the same as IBU?). When I plug this recipe into ianh's spreadsheet (using an IBU of 30 for the kit) it looks like this:

OG 1.039
FG 1.009
IBU 33.1
EBC 10.9
ABV 3.9% (4.3% in the bottle)

Is this going to be too bitter? Any other comments?

 

[brendo]

Okay so I've finally got the ingredients together to make this brew - slightly modified recipe to include some carapils...

Brewcraft Munich Lager can
Light DME 1kg
Dextrose 100g
Carapils 250g (steeped 30 minutes)
Tettnanger Hop pellets 15g 5.6% (@ 15 mins)
Hallertauer Hop pellets 15g 3.0% (@ flameout)​

I plan to make it on Monday but I'm concerned it will end up too bitter... The Brewcraft Munich Lager can says on the side of it that the "typical analysis" is between 25-35 EBU (which is the same as IBU?). When I plug this recipe into ianh's spreadsheet (using an IBU of 30 for the kit) it looks like this:

OG 1.039
FG 1.009
IBU 33.1
EBC 10.9
ABV 3.9% (4.3% in the bottle)

Is this going to be too bitter? Any other comments?

33 IBU's is not going to be overly bitter - especially given the extra DME which will add sweetness. You are only doing a short boil on the hops, so it will add mostly flavour/aroma with only a little extra bitterness.

I say go for it...

Brendo

 

[buttersd70]

I think the ibu rating for the kit is a bit optomistic anyway.....I'd go for it as written as well.

 

[whitegoose]

awesome, thanks guys

 

[whitegoose]

So I've just finished putting this brew down, I'm pretty happy with how it went. Steeping grains is so relaxing - I could do it all day!

One question however - this is the first time I've boiled hops and they seem to have made the whole wort pretty murky and green... is this normal? The pellets were quite powdery, although I didn't actually put any powder in the boil, only whole pellets. I tasted a little out of the hydrometer and the hops/bitterness was pretty full on - is this likely to settle down?