Terror suspect shot dead in Melbourne suburb.

[Feldon]

Nice try.


CF

Checkmate.

 

[CrookedFingers]

I don't play chess mate.




CF

 

[manticle]

There are media reports that suggest a sequence of events. That sequence of events has witnesses and whether it is completely true or not, it occurred in a public place. Certainly the version that's reported and the witnesses need to be given due scrutiny but to say there is no evidence or suggest that another version (with no evidence currently) is equally plausible is incorrect. There is evidence - whether that evidence holds up to scrutiny or not is what remains to be seen. No evidence for your 'equally plausible' explanation has been suggested or offered - just a might be/what if situation.
Don't feel singled out. Question the offered version of events by all means but refrain from offering alternative possibilities unless you have some evidence for them (rather than zero).

 

[Blind Dog]

For example:http://m.smh.com.au/comment/signals-of-jihad-in-australia-have-been-building-for-years-20140924-10lhon.html
The reporting in this article is so SHIT IGNORANT it's embarrassing to read, like watching a teenage boy get paralytic drink and throw up on his date.

Yep, let's prove jihad has been on the rise for years in Australia by using the example of a Maronite Christian. I just dont get why that shit is published

 

[Feldon]

Don't want to labour the point, but the so-called witnesses, knife attack etc are a zero sum game too, for you and me. We don't know jack shit what happened, only explanations from the people who did the killing. And any intelligent person should not accept it on face value. It needs to be tested at an inquest which, in time, I hope will happen.

And as for the killing of this guy as a PR coup for the new anti-terrorism laws, the new war in Syria/Iraq etc, I don't see it implausible at all. Its manna from heaven for the govt. Just what they need to make us compliant - the Engineering of Consent, as its been called. Remember the 2nd Gulf War prosecuted on the basis that Saddam had WMDs. The fuzzy photos waved around the UN chamber showing launch sites and chemical factories. All carefully constructed PR to make people in the US and here and elsewhere sign up for war based on nothing but lies. Its is quite plausible that something similar is happening right now. They have their Muslim scalp and they will use it to scare us into compliance, whether or not the killing was justified.

 

[Camo6]

Once more, until more facts come to light I'm content to trust in my old mate Occam and his razor. It's the rare occasion when he gets proven wrong.


As far as new terror laws go I'm more inclined to believe that the likelihood of falling prey to terrorist attacks in Australia is far greater than us descending into an Orwellian like future.

 

[Blind Dog]

There's a vast difference between how the IRA work and how the Muslim Extremists work.
At no time in London were there thousands of IRA members running around in packs hunting women and children down in 4WD's shooting randomly, killing hundreds in each spree. At no time were there 6,8 10 or 30 innocent victims lined up in front of their families and executed by headshots or beheaded with swords.
At no time were there an estimated 50,000 terrorists in the IRA (something like 20,000 in Syria and 30,000 in Iraq)
About the only similarity that can be drawn is that both groups were fanatic radicals and both killed people. (Innocents) and both are bad situations that are difficult to deal with and live

And that's happening in Australia where? There simply are not thousands of jihadists in Australia, nor indeed a single terrorist attack that I can recall. I also doubt all of the supposed 50,000 IS fighters are willing recruits when the choice is join or die.

IRA bombs went off in London almost daily and they killed and maimed. More went off in the rest of the UK. Over 3000 people lost their lives as a direct result of 'the troubles', the IRA being responsible for about 60%, loyalist terrorists for about 30% and the armed forces for about 10%. You can easily multiply that by 10 to get to the number injured, kneecapped, beaten senseless etc. The point is that the current hysteria is neither warranted (here) nor a sensible basis for passing laws that strip legitimate citizens of their rights without due process. Is if a conspiracy? I doubt it. Should we simply let it happen? No

But thanks for pointing out that no one had wished the 2 cops a speedy recovery. Humbled and 2nd your thoughts

 

[manticle]

I'm not saying it should be accepted on face value Feldon. It also shouldn't be rejected on face value.
You can't possibly have indisputable, unquestionable evidence of every fact, everywhere all the time. Noone can live like that. Where individuals draw the line is up to them.

 

[Mardoo]

I've been witness to some of the sort of chats that the AFP have with people of interest. My best friend was from Indonesia, and had some serious and seriously false allegations laid against him. The AFP contacted him to make a time to come talk to him about what was going on. He asked me to be there both times as both support and witness. A Victorian police officer and an AFP officer came to talk to him on two occasions about what was going on, separated by a couple years. It's one of the tactics of police in Australia I find admirable, to get a handle on a situation before it blows up. Of course it also says, "We're watching you," but these guys were seriously respectful in how everything was handled.

Now, I am most definitely not the most police supporter kind of guy. Anyone with a gun has an unfair advantage in my book, I steer far clear of them (police or not), and I have referred to police as "the Occupying Army" for many, many years. I don't hate them, but I don't trust them, because I don't trust human intentions and the drive behind them (which also means we need armed protectors like the police - conundrum). The kid was smart not to meet them in the station. However the details of the police story in this case square with my experience of police in Australia. There is absolutely nothing suspicious about them trying to arrange a talk with him. They do it all the time. In addition, if the allegations of up to three people being involved are true, and the boy who was shot was planning on beheading, there will be independent video footage which will most definitely surface.

I really hope there will be a clear and open inquest into this so that we will have something other than presuming and assuming. I would imagine there will be video footage from the police station outdoor cameras.

 

[HBHB]

And that's happening in Australia where? There simply are not thousands of jihadists in Australia

Assumptions. I didn't say in Australia mate. I said Iraq and Syria.

 

[manticle]

Which does return to his/her point somewhat- viz: why is there more panic about this in australia than there was in the UK about IRA?
S/he's not comparing feelings in Syria with feelings in UK.

 

[Dave70]

In other news, and ADF member was belted outside his Bela Vista home by a couple of men of hipster appearance. ( the beards are a dead giveaway).
Wonder if they simply followed him home or the database containing address has been compromised? Thats bit of a worry, isn't it?
With a substantial ADF population out my way due to the RAAF base, I fear we may see a heightened hipster activity level.

 

[pk.sax]

Could be good for craft beer. They would obviously want to slake that beating induced thirst somewhere locally.

Just take your own glass to the pub though.... Don't fancy em mason jars too much.

 

[Dave70]

Lot of people here (all?) seem to have accepted the police version of the incident.

Just because the cops say something happened a certain way doesn't mean that's the way it was.

(eg. an equally plausible explanation is that he was beat up by the cops and pulled a knife(s) to defend himself)

The only fact we have is that he is dead. All the rest is part of your believe system.

Stop believing and start thinking.

Whilst I agree we should always read between the lines, I think you're being deliberately contrarian here just for the sake of it.

Lets apply a little slash of Occam's razor.
Whats more likely, two police officers decided to throw their careers down the toilet and face jail time in order beat up a citizen in a public place, or a unstable young man with form for antisocial behavior and radicalized religious beliefs decided he wanted to become a martyr and maby take out a cop or two in the process?

Why is it so difficult for people to accept that some individuals actually believe what they say they believe?

 

[philmud]

Meanwhile, when countries fall over themselves reacting to non-specific fears about terror, shit like this happens;

http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2014/09/26/im-really-scared-teen-trapped-home-after-labelled-terror-suspect-fairfax

 

[AndrewQLD]

Meanwhile, when countries fall over themselves reacting to non-specific fears about terror, shit like this happens;

http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2014/09/26/im-really-scared-teen-trapped-home-after-labelled-terror-suspect-fairfax

No that's what happens when journalists and editors don't do due diligence and double check stories for inaccuracies, it's absolutely appalling and I hope he sues the newspaper for millions.
Really getting fed up with our media and journalists publishing stories that are inaccurate.

 

[Mardoo]

Most journalism I see is infotainment, at best.

 

[philmud]

Doesn't happen in a vacuum Andrew. There's a sense of urgency/hysteria that precipitates ****-ups like this. If both the pollies and the media took a deep breath we'd have less hasty journalism and legislation. I agree though, hope he sues the pants off them.

 

[manticle]

So shit.

Media get stuff wrong all the time (personal experience of this) but to stuff something like that up is really poor. Thus my earlier disclaimers of 'if media reports are true'.

 

[wide eyed and legless]

An example of journalists reporting what they either think or were told was the killings of the three IRA militants on Gibraltar, what really happened we will never know unless we surmise that it was an execution after it was revealed that the SAS were ordered to take no prisoners during the Iranian embassy siege and executed on the spot two of the terrorists who had surrendered.
I believe that if you decide to align yourself to a terrorist organisation,especially one which has no regard for human rights, post things on a Facebook page about intentions to commit harm to others then it can only be expected that dire consequences could be coming your way.