Sydney Water Too Soft For Brewing?

[BjornJ]

Hi all,
read the other night in the online version of Palmers "How to brew" about water profile, and the impact on beer style.
Palmer says the softer the water, the lower the mash pH.
Meaning "low enough" pH can be achieved using only base malts (if having soft water), adding dark malts give (possibly) lower mash pH than what is good.

My understanding after reading this is that places with hard water benefit from using dark grains as these reduce the mash pH, this is why Guiness is so good where it is brewed, while had you tried brewing Guiness in Pilsen the soft water would make the pH to low, and the beer "bad".

Looking at the Sydney water profile from Prospect water plant ( I believe this is for most of Sydney?), and from figures I have from others here on aussiehomebrewer, I have the following beersmith water profile for Sydney:


comparing that to the water property figures from Palmer of famous brewing cites around the world:


I have added the Sydney water levels to the second picture for easier comparison.

Does this mean Sydney has really soft water, so soft it may be beneficial to make either light-colored beers using base malts, or use water additions if wanting to make darker beers?

I don't measure mash pH but this makes me want to

It would be interesting to hear from someone who use water additions to change the Sydney water, or those who have considered it but found it not necessary.

What do you think, what do you add, why do you add that?

I have pondered for a little while if I should start adding acid malt to all brews, after reading an article saying low mash pH would improve clarity and stability of the beer. But after reading this now it sounds like if I add acid malt or too much dark grains the mash pH will be too low with the Sydney water.

Quoting Palmer on the water profiles:

"
The fact of the matter is that dark beer cannot be brewed in Pilsen, and light lagers can't be brewed in Dublin without adding the proper type and amount of buffering salts.
"


Hmm..

thanks
Bjorn

 

[dgilks]

Canberra water is even softer than that and last I checked we make some decent beers.

Personally, I think it is better to have softer water. It makes it easier to make better pale beers and you can adjust your water profile if you want to.

 

[Fourstar]

The best thing you can do with soft water is to add calcium to atleast 50ppm for the mash, even with light coloured beers. Calcium aids enzyme activity and assists with protien breakdown and gelatinisation. If its a dark beer, no problem, add some chalk in there.

Once your mash is done you can go all out with other modifications in the boil kettle (sulfate and chloride) depending on the beer you are brewing.

Cheers.

 

[mika]

If you've got that far with Jon Palmers book, you need to research his thoughts on residual alkalinity, he goes on to explain the various ratio's you want depending on beer style.

As fourstar has mentioned, your calcium is quite low, but I'd look into adding sulphate or carbonate in the mash, rather than the boil kettle. If you sort out the ratio's for the mash, you shouldn't need to be adding anything to the kettle.

 

[Fourstar]

As fourstar has mentioned, your calcium is quite low, but I'd look into adding sulphate or carbonate in the mash, rather than the boil kettle. If you sort out the ratio's for the mash, you shouldn't need to be adding anything to the kettle.

Just out of interest Mika, What sort of gain do you have from sulphate in the mash over the boil? Does it give much alkalinity at all? I usually just throw Calcium Chloride into the mash for lighet SRM beers and CaSO4 into the boil and leave chalk to do the hard work in the mash if i need alkalinity. I do this mainly for consistency of SO4 concentration in the final product which i find had more of an effect on the hop profile/dryness than what a low or high concentration of Cl has on malt accentuation.

Cheers! :icon_cheers:

 

[Cortez The Killer]

Wollongong water is also very soft

Nearly all of my brews receive a nice pinch of gypsum

No need in the darker ones - porters / stout etc

There's a complex world of salt additions out there

Cheers

 

[mika]

I've been talking to Asher, he's done the actual homework on it, I need to pull out the graph and work it out for my own profile. -Disclaimer over, my thoughts on the matter. As you mentioned, you need calcium in the mash to help with the enzymes, so you'll have to throw some calcium in there to get it up to the 25ppm (?) minimum recommended by Jon Palmer, so why not sort out your Sulphate, Chloride ratio's at the same time. The level of Carbonates in the water also have an affect and as a general rule of thumb, should be further up the scale (more than what local Perth water is giving anyway, though I think this depends on style). So all these minerals that you've just added, will have an affect on PH and with any luck push it in the right direction so that you achieve the correct mash PH.

As I mentioned, I haven't yet gone this far with my own water corrections. But even what I've read/heard, I can't recall anyone making additions to the kettle. If you've made the experiment and found the difference, then I'll shut up. I could see it being easier to get the Sulphates to dissolve in the boil.

 

[mje1980]

Nah nah you're all wrong, i read in this book once............ :icon_cheers:

 

[matti]

With sydney water:

I add Gypsum to dark ales, I only brew darker ales occasionally.
How accurate this is I wouldn't dare to guess.
If i do APAs the malt bill basically balance the hops out.
I tend to be a bit aggressive hopper at times.

Lagers or lighter Ale I tend to add acidulated malts to reach pH 5.2 ish.
Now how close I get to 5.2 I don't know. My pH strips which I located in a pair of short I used brewing in March was missing last brew day. I get pretty close in most cases though.


The most important water to adjust is the sparge water I think.
Weather you batch sparge or fly sparge the pH will go up during lautering.
So i adjsut teh sparge water t0 6.5 ish

 

[Fourstar]

As you mentioned, you need calcium in the mash to help with the enzymes, so you'll have to throw some calcium in there to get it up to the 25ppm (?) minimum recommended by Jon Palmer, so why not sort out your Sulphate, Chloride ratio's at the same time. The level of Carbonates in the water also have an affect and as a general rule of thumb, should be further up the scale (more than what local Perth water is giving anyway, though I think this depends on style).

But even what I've read/heard, I can't recall anyone making additions to the kettle. If you've made the experiment and found the difference, then I'll shut up. I could see it being easier to get the Sulphates to dissolve in the boil.

The main reason i no longer add ALL of my salts to the mash be because when trying to focus on adding all of the pH adjusting and flavour minerals at the same time you end up having to compromise on one of them (in most circumstances).

Also keep in mind you are only supposed to be adding enough salts for the mash component to adjust pH, not your final volume ppm count. If you are adding salts equal to your final volume expectation, most likely your mash pH will be way off. On the other hand if you only add salts in the mash just to adjust pH, your final Ca count and flavour mineral count will be quite low. (In my case it would be by around 30%!)

I find by splitting them up i can focus independantly on getting the mash pH right and once thats sorted, forget about it. Then I focus on the flavour component in the boil. and getting the correct ppm count in the final volume. Also not having to worry about adding enugh equal to the sparge volume whcih would result in even further concentration of minerals.

As for noticing a difference, I cant say they i have. Not that i have been testing with pH papers during the mash or reproducing idential recipes with different salt additions but i can say the final ppm estimations would probabaly be better off with my current method and increase the repeatability.

If you havn't listened to Brewstrong Waterganza podcasts, i'd suggest you have a listen. That series of shows is one of the reasons why i have adopted this current method. Maybe pick Ashers head about the methods i take. Im sure he could give some pro's/cons about my procedure.

Cheers! :icon_cheers:

 

[manticle]

While water chemistry is something I'm interested in getting into, most of the successful beers I've brewed have been on the darker side of things and I make no water additions. I'm talking recent AG stouts and browns as well as previous extract/specialty and partial stouts and browns. I live in Melbourne, Melbourne water is soft. I'm sure water chemistry/additions can help make better beer but have you actually noticed your stouts being 'bad'?

 

[geoffi]

I'm sure Mr Palmer (is his missus the one with the five comely daughters?) knows a thing or two. But I fear he might be 'overstretching' to say that 'dark beer cannot be brewed' in location x, y, or z (or p, as the case may be). Of course it can. It will just be different to the 'classic style brewed in, say, location 'd'.

I brewed good dark beers with Sydney water. Maybe different to beers brewed with the 'correct' water profile, but they turned out mighty good nonetheless.

 

[///]

Just remember, calcium based sales work in a few ways;

* to assist in enzyme activity
* to bind and make phytic acid to decrease wort pH
* influences A and B amalayse activity in the mash (via pH)
* influences hop bitterness
* assists with yeast floculation.

Soft water is great, but yeast will not drop. Also you need to make sure your pH range in the mash is between 4.9 and 5.5, the lower influence A amalayse and higher B amalayse, therefore fermentatbility, extract and flavour profiles.

We dont do ppm analysis, standard for 1200l is 250 of each in the mash, get 5.2-3 with regularity, some good tasting beers, that attenuate and floculate.

Scotty

 

[katzke]

The main reason i no longer add ALL of my salts to the mash be because when trying to focus on adding all of the pH adjusting and flavour minerals at the same time you end up having to compromise on one of them (in most circumstances).

Also keep in mind you are only supposed to be adding enough salts for the mash component to adjust pH, not your final volume ppm count. If you are adding salts equal to your final volume expectation, most likely your mash pH will be way off. On the other hand if you only add salts in the mash just to adjust pH, your final Ca count and flavour mineral count will be quite low. (In my case it would be by around 30%!)

I find by splitting them up i can focus independantly on getting the mash pH right and once thats sorted, forget about it. Then I focus on the flavour component in the boil. and getting the correct ppm count in the final volume. Also not having to worry about adding enugh equal to the sparge volume whcih would result in even further concentration of minerals.

Cheers! :icon_cheers:

I have heard more about adding salts to the mash and then to the boil. I think it has merit for traditional mashers.

I BIAB so add all my salts to the mash. Yep I may get more concentration after boil off but have not thought much about it. I am more concerned about what is happening in the mash. The program I use (BreWater) and spread sheet (Palmers modified to allow canning salt) allow me to nail my additions while balancing out the CL/SO4.

By the way beware of the data on world brewing water. Just because a sample taken from a hose bib or the bathroom of the brewery is hard enough to give a horse kidney stones does not say that is the water they brew with.

The radio program referenced is one of the better ones I have heard, as long as it is the same one I remember.

I have noticed a big improvement in my beer with adjusting water.

 

[Fourstar]

I have heard more about adding salts to the mash and then to the boil. I think it has merit for traditional mashers.
I BIAB so add all my salts to the mash. Yep I may get more concentration after boil off but have not thought much about it. I am more concerned about what is happening in the mash. The program I use (BreWater) and spread sheet (Palmers modified to allow canning salt) allow me to nail my additions while balancing out the CL/SO4.
By the way beware of the data on world brewing water. Just because a sample taken from a hose bib or the bathroom of the brewery is hard enough to give a horse kidney stones does not say that is the water they brew with.
The radio program referenced is one of the better ones I have heard, as long as it is the same one I remember.
I have noticed a big improvement in my beer with adjusting water.

Some good points Katzke!

Just make sure with your additions that you are making to adjust your mash that they are calculated to your volume at that stage to ensure correct pH. I wouldnt worry too much about the final concentration as you will lose some of your salts to the grain bed anyway, Most likly it will balance itself out.

As you are aware, due to BIAB there are no extra water additions which makes your process a little easier to balance all of your salt additions according to your expected final volume. This is the perfect example when to add ALL of your salts to the mash. Unless of course you are not interested in what Na Cl and SO4 addtions do to your beer if you are a traditional AG'er.

Brewers need to ignore traditional water profiles and focus primarily on the benifits on what salts do to your beer depending on the colour of the wort. Put it this way, you can brew a decent stout with low calcium hardness and high alkalinity and decent stouts with hard water and a higher alkalinity, BUT its difficult to make a comparable stout with no alkalinity during the mash. Unless you add the dark malts post mash which will drive the wort pH down during the sparge anyway.

The biggest issue by not adding salts and following the final method is if your base water has low values of flavour salts/minerals the final beer profile might not be as good as the one with the water additions (depending on the style).

Ive probably just kicked off a shitstorm by saying all that, but i know why that is the case. Try it for yourself!

Pour two pints of a beer with no water additions. Then get yourself a small flake of CaCl, grind it up and drop it into one of the beers, give it a stir and come back to it in 5 mins (make sure tis not heavily carbed or else it will nucleate all over your benchtop! ).

I guarantee you WILL taste a difference, possibly also smell a difference. Atleast i could with my Munich Dunkel tester i did.

Cheers!

 

[BjornJ]

Pour two pints of a beer with no water additions. Then get yourself a small flake of CaCl, grind it up and drop it into one of the beers, give it a stir and come back to it in 5 mins (make sure tis not heavily carbed or else it will nucleate all over your benchtop! ).

I guarantee you WILL taste a difference, possibly also smell a difference. Atleast i could with my Munich Dunkel tester i did.

Cheers!

kind of like how adding salt to a meal makes the flavors "stand out" more?

 

[Fourstar]

kind of like how adding salt to a meal makes the flavors "stand out" more?

Exactly! Or like the old bloke in the pub that drops some salt in his pot. Salt has the same merits as Calcium Chloride. Improves malt flavour.

 

[BjornJ]

thanks for good feedback, guys.

Does this mean that for every beer batch I need to calculate the pH based on beer color/grain mix, then adjust the pH if not in the range of 5.2-5.6?
Then add calcium, how do I know how much to add to get the right ppm?

I have taken the graph from Palmer, and put in the Sydney water levels for Calcium and Magnesium. This gives an Effective Hardness level, I then drew the line showing what beer style is "optimal" without adding anything to the water.



it seems the Sydney water is so soft/high pH that with only base malts, the mash pH would be 5.8, too high.
This is why the graph points to darker beer, adding specialty grains to achieve this color will also reduce the pH.

I was quite surprised by this?!
I thought the soft water would mean we should be able to brew light-colored beers without additions?

Looking at the graph again, it seems that if we change the Calcium levels from 14.5 (current value) to say 100 the pH drops and light-colored beers are within reach

The online version of how-to-brew has new spreadsheets added Sept 2009 for calculating water additions, will have a play with them to learn more,

http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter15-3.html

thanks
Bjorn

 

[BjornJ]

full-size graph if others want to test:

http://www.howtobrew.com/images/f83.pdf

 

[Fourstar]

thanks for good feedback, guys.
Does this mean that for every beer batch I need to calculate the pH based on beer color/grain mix, then adjust the pH if not in the range of 5.2-5.6?
Then add calcium, how do I know how much to add to get the right ppm?
it seems the Sydney water is so soft/high pH that with only base malts, the mash pH would be 5.8, too high.
This is why the graph points to darker beer, adding specialty grains to achieve this color will also reduce the pH.
I was quite surprised by this?!
I thought the soft water would mean we should be able to brew light-colored beers without additions?
Looking at the graph again, it seems that if we change the Calcium levels from 14.5 (current value) to say 100 the pH drops and light-colored beers are within reach
The online version of how-to-brew has new spreadsheets added Sept 2009 for calculating water additions, will have a play with them to learn more,
http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter15-3.html
thanks
Bjorn

Hey Bjorn, using the BABBS nomograph application it shows you are almost in the middle between 5.7-5.8. This is susitable just for light coloured beers moving up to dark amber. (also you run a vertical line from the mash pH point, not continuing the diagonal.)\
http://nomograph.babbrewers.com/

Alkalinity is the dark horse in your case. Small amounts of it do make a considerable difference to your mash pH which is unfortunate if you want to make light SRM beers. You may find your pH to be a little high when making these kinds of beers.

As you noted, if you slap down a considerable amount of calcium it will lower the pH. If you want to bump it up for a stout, a small addition of Chalk would be best so you get some calcium and the alkalinity you need for the darker malts.

Cheers.