Sulphites in home brew? Any brew chemists out there?

[Seeker]

I've recently found that I have a sulphite sensitivity, and I've been testing different drinks to find what affects me.

The last two brews I did affected me (and probably all the others too), so home brew appears to be a problem.

I had Heineken last week and that definitely has sulphites in ( no surprise), but Bitburger seemed fine (German purity laws probably)


So obviously some beer is ok, but not home brew even though no sulphites were added.


Anyone have any idea how I can reduce sulphites in my beer?

Anything on this list would be bad I guess;


E150b

Caustic sulfite caramel

E150d

Sulfite ammonia caramel

E220

Sulfur dioxide

E221

Sodium sulfite

E222

Sodium bisulfite (sodium hydrogen sulfite)

E223

Sodium metabisulfite

E224

Potassium metabisulfite

E225

Potassium sulfite

E226

Calcium sulfite

E227

Calcium hydrogen sulfite (preservative)

E228

Potassium hydrogen sulfite

 

[yankinoz]

I left chemistry years ago, and so am a bit rusty. You might see if Martin Kai (braukaiser) has anything on sulphur (or sulfur) chemistry on his website. I'll give it my best.

I don't know why anyone would add sulphites to beer. There is plenty of sulphur in various forms in beer that could conceivably end up as sulphite, but keep in mind that fermenting wort very soon becomes a reducing medium, not an oxidizing one.

Sulphates are reduced to sulphites, from SO4-- to SO3--; note the loss of one oxygen atom. Production of sulphur compounds from organic compounds present in wort and beer happens at low fermentation temperatures, especially in lagers and more or less depending on the yeast used, and conditioning is used to eliminate those compounds. But in general oxidation would probably be necessary to produce sulphites from that source. Take hydrogen sulphide as representative. The reaction is 2H2S + 3O2 --> 2H2SO3 --> 4H+ + 2SO3--; note oxygen is required to produce sulphite.

I'm speculating that any sulphite in your Heineken is a product of light-induced reactions in those moronic green bottles. Or was your Heineken on tap? If it came from a bottle, may I volunteer you as a guinea pig. Try Heineken from a can or on tap and see what happens. Let me know.

Two thoughts on home brew. One, keep sulphates very low in your brewing water. Do you have an assay? Did you add gypsum or Epsom salts? Two, try lengthy cold conditioning.

 

[Kodos]

Obviously I don't know you, your diagnosis or your personal situation, but I found this article very interesting:

http://www.wsj.com/articles/wine-headache-chances-are-its-not-the-sulfites-1426250886

Perhaps the headaches come from something like higher alcohols - relating to fermentation?

Are you getting the same reaction when you have dried fruits etc?

Either way, I hope you work out what's doing it - life without homebrew isn't a life!!

 

[dannymars]

I have moderate sulphite sensitivity... I can usually have one or two ciders/wines but any more than that and I get a rash, haven't really ever gotten it from beer.

 

[pcmfisher]

What symptoms do you get?
How are you sure it is the Sulphite?

 

[HBHB]

http://so2go.com.au/stockists/australia/

Works a treat. Have family members and a staff member with the same problem.

 

[DJ_L3ThAL]

^^ Gonna give that a go! Don't have issues with beer, but get wheezy with red wine, can't typically have more than half a bottle without noticing.

 

[HBHB]

^^ Gonna give that a go! Don't have issues with beer, but get wheezy with red wine, can't typically have more than half a bottle without noticing.

Solves most issues including the dreaded sulphite headache in most cases. :super:

 

[Seeker]

Symptoms;

Extreme triedness, lethagy, depression - similar to chronic fatigue syndrome symptoms. Happens within 1 hour of consuming certain foods/drinks, and lasts about 8 hours, making work pretty much impossible. It's been happening certainly since I was at school, and I'm only just figuring it out and getting control and I'm 45 now

It's not possible as afar as I'm aware to be tested for sulphite sensitivity, instead you need to go on an exclusion diet and then introduce "challenge" foods.

So far I react to; cheese, milk solids, anything from the deli counter, some fresh fruit (sprayed with sulphites), wine, home brew.


It's possible that other chemicals than sulphites are causing issues also, and reactions to beer/wine have been particularly difficult to figure out as alcohol is the only thing that relieves symptoms - anti-histamines do help though.

The SO2 go stuff - you can buy the same type of deal in Dan Murphys and 1st Choice. It's just hydrogen peroxide 3%. It does help al lot, but I still react eventually.

Not tried it in beer yet.

 

[Seeker]

I left chemistry years ago, and so am a bit rusty. You might see if Martin Kai (braukaiser) has anything on sulphur (or sulfur) chemistry on his website. I'll give it my best.

I don't know why anyone would add sulphites to beer. There is plenty of sulphur in various forms in beer that could conceivably end up as sulphite, but keep in mind that fermenting wort very soon becomes a reducing medium, not an oxidizing one.

Sulphates are reduced to sulphites, from SO4-- to SO3--; note the loss of one oxygen atom. Production of sulphur compounds from organic compounds present in wort and beer happens at low fermentation temperatures, especially in lagers and more or less depending on the yeast used, and conditioning is used to eliminate those compounds. But in general oxidation would probably be necessary to produce sulphites from that source. Take hydrogen sulphide as representative. The reaction is 2H2S + 3O2 --> 2H2SO3 --> 4H+ + 2SO3--; note oxygen is required to produce sulphite.

I'm speculating that any sulphite in your Heineken is a product of light-induced reactions in those moronic green bottles. Or was your Heineken on tap? If it came from a bottle, may I volunteer you as a guinea pig. Try Heineken from a can or on tap and see what happens. Let me know.

Two thoughts on home brew. One, keep sulphates very low in your brewing water. Do you have an assay? Did you add gypsum or Epsom salts? Two, try lengthy cold conditioning.

Thanks for that.

Regarding addulterants in beer, check this out; https://www.brewsnews.com.au/2012/06/short-history-of-brewing-additives-in-australia/

ANZ allowable additives are (my changes in italics.);

Under Standard 1.3.1 – Food Additives the following additives are permitted in beer:

• ascorbic acid and sodium, calcium and potassium ascorbates
• caramel (likely to cause sensitive individuals problems)
• carbon dioxide
• erythorbic acid and potassium erythorbate
• flavourings, excluding caffeine and quinine
• nisin
• nitrogen
• propylene glycol alginate
• sulphur dioxide and sodium and potassium sulphites (likely to cause sensitive individuals problems)

Regarding the sulphite reactions you note above;

You say that fermenting wort is reducing, and that to make sulphites it needs oxygen, so wouldn't the reaction be the the other way around? e.g Sulphite turn into sulphates?

My Heineken was from a MGB (Moronic Green Bottle). It is possible that it could be light reacted - I have noticed that beers from the big booze barns often seem light on hop flavour, maybe because they get left in sun lit loading yards longer than the smaller bottle shops stock.

I'm drinking Beck in cans from Bremen with no reaction right now. I'll try a few Heineken cans at some point, but a negative reaction is not always proof of a clean/allowable product, as food sensitivities work with a threshold effect. If my consumption is below the threshold - no symptoms. So I may get affected by a very small amount one day if I've had a few glasses of wine the day before for example.

 

[ebyelyakov]

There is a difference between sulphate (SO4) and sulphite (SO3) as well as sulfur, so abundantly farted by lager yeast while it ferments.

Do some quick test -- 0.2 gm of gypsum (CaSO4) per 1 lt water, drink, assess your feelings, draw conclusions. I'm sure you won't have any bad feelings..

One of the positive sides if making homebrew is purity of it - no odd flavours (or feelings the next morning). Since your experience is different - can you shed some light on the brew which affected you so negatively? Again, I do not think the chemistry of the water is a culprit here since (assuming you use tap water) the same water is used for everything else...

 

[yankinoz]

Thanks for that.

Regarding addulterants in beer, check this out; https://www.brewsnews.com.au/2012/06/short-history-of-brewing-additives-in-australia/

ANZ allowable additives are (my changes in italics.);

Under Standard 1.3.1 – Food Additives the following additives are permitted in beer:

• ascorbic acid and sodium, calcium and potassium ascorbates
• caramel (likely to cause sensitive individuals problems)
• carbon dioxide
• erythorbic acid and potassium erythorbate
• flavourings, excluding caffeine and quinine
• nisin
• nitrogen
• propylene glycol alginate
• sulphur dioxide and sodium and potassium sulphites (likely to cause sensitive individuals problems)

Regarding the sulphite reactions you note above;

You say that fermenting wort is reducing, and that to make sulphites it needs oxygen, so wouldn't the reaction be the the other way around? e.g Sulphite turn into sulphates?

My Heineken was from a MGB (Moronic Green Bottle). It is possible that it could be light reacted - I have noticed that beers from the big booze barns often seem light on hop flavour, maybe because they get left in sun lit loading yards longer than the smaller bottle shops stock.

I'm drinking Beck in cans from Bremen with no reaction right now. I'll try a few Heineken cans at some point, but a negative reaction is not always proof of a clean/allowable product, as food sensitivities work with a threshold effect. If my consumption is below the threshold - no symptoms. So I may get affected by a very small amount one day if I've had a few glasses of wine the day before for example.

Sulphites readily oxidize to sulphates. All you need is oxygen and a short exposure. The reaction is reversible, but would not produce sulphite unless reducing agents are present. Finished beer is oxygen-free, but there would need to be something to cause the reduction. Microbial activity might do it, but would not be present in pasteurised bottled beer. That's why I mentioned sunlight, but that's speculative, and I mean it about experimenting with canned or draught. As for sulphates in water, my concern with high levels in home brewing would be that they might reduce to sulphites in cold fermentation, where hydrogen sulphide and mercaptans are present. That is also speculative.

Interesting that sulphites are on an approved list for brewing. I knew the operations of one US brewery years ago and never heard of it, unlike winemaking where it goes back at least to the Romans burning sulphur in wine amphorae. Good luck with sulphite-free wines. I have known winemakers who made a palatable sulphite-free product by pitching yeast into pasteurised grape must, but they used native American or hybrid grape varieties that withstood heating and that had low pH. One variety was Isabella, which does turn up at Australian nurseries, if you want to go that route, but it won't taste like Penfold's Grange or even Chateau de Plonk..

If you aerate wine and leave it, sulphites decline pretty fast. Whether that drops below your threshold before ruining you drink would presumably depend on how sensitive you are. I've heard of a few people doing that, but not many.

 

[yankinoz]

I did some some checking, and it seems suphites have two uses in commercial brewing, though both are unusual. One is to sanitise equipment, but much better sanitisers are out there. The other is at bottling time, acting as an antioxidant to stabilize beer, but most breweries instead use CO2 or nitrogen at filling to expel air. Ih Heineken contains sulphites it's probably from bottling or kegging. Pretty sloppy practice if they do.

What sanitisers do you use?

 

[DJ_L3ThAL]

If you aerate wine and leave it, sulphites decline pretty fast. Whether that drops below your threshold before ruining you drink would presumably depend on how sensitive you are. I've heard of a few people doing that, but not many.

Fast as in seconds, minutes, hours, weeks?? If minutes to hours perhaps another reason wines are decanted?

 

[ebyelyakov]

What sanitisers do you use

StarSan - phosphoric acid based. 2PH is quite onerous to most living forms.

I also soak my bottles (which are also rinsed with water on empty) and fermenter in a bleach solution before thoroughly rinsing with the acid solution to ensure everything is killed so I won't get an accidental yeast or mold that shouldn't be there.... I also treat the fermenter (a glass carboy) with hot steam for about 20 mns after rinsing... Bottles are rinsed in the dishwater which is used only for this purpose (e.g. no dishes go there ever).

 

[MHB]

Yeast makes Sulphites, well more precisely it produces SO2 which reacts in the beer to make Sulphites.
To minimise the amount produced do everything you can to makes the yeast happy, i.e. pitch a large healthy yeast active starter at high krausen into a well aerated wort and if you are still having problems save some wort and add it into the ferment near the end point.

Lager yeast is going to make a lot more SO2 than will Ale. Naturally produced Sulphites are regarded as quite helpful by German brewers who aren't allowed to add then to stabilise packaged beer.

I am surprised to hear that there is enough to cause a problem, but if you are sensitive enough there are steps you can take to minimise SO2 production, holding the beer longer will also reduce the free sulphur, but yeast management is the big one.
Mark

 

[Seeker]

Guys, thanks very much for all the above.

I'm at the point where I'm collecting information about products that cause an effect with me, and then trying to isolate the actual chemical. Beer is the first one, as I was pretty worried I'd have to stop drinking it.

For the last couple of weeks I've been very careful to avoid sulphites in my diet, and I've been drinking Becks with no effect, so I had a few nights of home brew, and one that had seemed to affect me. This time though, there was no effect.

I'm suspecting that beer has been straw that broke the camels back rather than a major cause, which is a major relief I can tell you!

I will test Gypsum - that makes sense, and I also doubt now that there will be an effect.

One thing that really stacks up is microbial action. The last two beers I did both had an effect on me, and while they tasted ok, they weren't great. When i went to pitch the yeast that I collected from the top of the last one (and used in both) I found that it absolutely stank, so was very likely infected during fermentation of both beers.

I had milled grain in the close vicinity which is the most likely culprit - I've mostly quit milling now anyway as Craft Brewer will do it for me, so what's the point?

One other reason I wanted to post about all this was to improve the chances of other people with the same problems tripping over this. If that's you feel free to PM me for more info, and check out this website - fedup.com.au.

The hardest thing is finding out what's really wrong, as symptoms can be so varied. Cutting out bad foods is the easy part.

Silver lining - I'm still drinking beer when ever I want, but I'm losing weight at the same time due to all the shit I've stopped eating. Win-win.

 

[Seeker]

Update;

After lots of testing it would appear that the problem I have with beer is NOT from preservatives in the main. I now beleive I have two sensitivities, the biggest is to preservatives, but once I removed them from my diet I found another smaller one which I think is histamines, either in the food, or that causes a release when eaten.

I only react to some beers, and I think I know why now.

1. JS Amber Ale - 6 pack - no reactions
2. JS 150 lashes - 6 pack - reacted within 1/4 of bottle every time.

I think 150 is dry hopped and since hops are flowers they probably contain pollen and that (I think) is causing a histamine reaction.

Last two batches were not dry hopped, but were cube hopped and there is no noticable reaction (probably means I react only to larger amounts).

So easy and happy ending - I just have to avoid dry hopped beers, which I'm not that bothered about any how as I mostly like late hopped real ale.

 

[klangers]

Here are some differences between amber ale and 150 lashes:

• Amber Ale is made at West End, and 150 lashes at Tooheys. Very few JS beers are still brewed at Maltshovel due to the supply/demand mismatch.
• Amber ale is all malt, 150 lashes has a substantial wheat bill - are you sensitive to gluten?

After doing work at both breweries I highly doubt that dry hopping will result in pollens flowing through; the beer is filtered totally bright before being clouded with a clouding agent and then bottled (yes - that cloudiness that people think is yeast is actually an additive in most commercial beers). Have a look around for stuff on "bio cloud". Perhaps that could be the culprit.

Now, Heineken is also brewed at Tooheys in Australia. However, Heineken have some of the most stringent standards in the world for breweries that brew their beer under license so I wouldn't say that their practise is sloppy as such. You can get a Heineken anywhere in the world and it will taste the same (typically!). Tooheys use caustic soda for CIP fluids; no sulphites there.

All commercial beer is pasteurised. Bottles are tunnel pasteurised whereby the bottles are raised to 70 deg or so for a number of minutes - could this convert sulphur (abundantly present from Heineken lager yeast) to sulphites?

 

[JDW81]

I found another smaller one which I think is histamines, either in the food, or that causes a release when eaten.

You are not allergic to histamines, you are sensitive to something in foodstuffs that causes the degranulation of mast cells (a type of white blood cell), which results in histamine release and the subsequent symptoms (itch, wheeze, rash etc)

• Amber ale is all malt, 150 lashes has a substantial wheat bill - are you sensitive to gluten?

wheat or barley based, it doesn't really matter. Both grains contain gluten and will set off someone who is sensitive.

JD