Style Of The Week 22/8/07 - Munich Dunkel

[Katherine]

Butterscotch is indicative of diacetyl. Not having used the danish lager yeast i cant comment on it.

Mine doesnt* have diacetyl and i didnt do a diacetyl rest (pitched warm, WLP833, 3 weeks primary, 4+ weeks at 1C).

Cheers
DrSmurto

* my diacetyl detecting taste tester is yet to taste this beer and comment. i cant detect diacetyl or at least, not as butterscotch. The one beer i have had that was full of diacetyl used the american ale II yeast (WY1272). None of my lagers have had it.

We used in the yeast in the lager with conditioning now. It has no butterscotch taste. Lloydie ensures me it will go away! Now with the diacetyl rest some people swear by it and some dont. Which confuses me as there both very much respected by myself! If it has the butterscotch flavour now does that mean it requires a D rest.

 

[drsmurto]

Yes

I generally taste it at the end of ferment. If its laden with diacetyl, then give it a diacetyl rest.

If not, straight into the lagering stage

 

[Katherine]

That would be Diacetyl, it may be accentuated by crystal malt if you have any. If its still in the fermenter, at the end of fermentation warm it up to ambient temps 16-18deg~ for a couple of days just to help the yeast clean up after itself, this should help reduce the diacetyl. If its already kegged, do the same thing, you might have enough yeast left in the keg to help clean up any precursors like diacetyl.

Cheers!

Fourstar I had already posted before you replied. Its only 5 days old. That is what we were thinking of doing. So that is a D rest yeah!

Now another question has all lager yeast got diacetyl in it? does the yeast just take the taste away but the diacetyl is still there. Hope that makes sense.

 

[Fourstar]

If it has the butterscotch flavour now does that mean it requires a D rest.

If its at the end of fermentation or very close to. Yes! Crank the temp up and let the yeasties do their thing. Theres no hurt in doing a diacetyl reast so i dont understand why people avoid it. Unless of course you are stressed for time with the beer and need to get it somewhere.

Ive never had diacetyl in any of my beers until the latest palealemania comp. I had to speed up the end of fermentation on my AIPA and rushed the diacetyl rest, I ended up 1 of the bottles riddled with diacetyl according to my judging sheet. I'm unsure why only 1 of them was noted with having diacetyl. My only conclusion is it kicked off some tertiary/residual fermentation in the bottle. Im at the end of the keg and she definitely doesnt taste of any diacetyl. on the other hand It does have alot of crystal sweetness maybe it was incorrect judging?! who knows.

 

[Fourstar]

Fourstar I had already posted before you replied. Its only 5 days old. That is what we were thinking of doing. So that is a D rest yeah!

Now another question has all lager yeast got diacetyl in it? does the yeast just take the taste away but the diacetyl is still there. Hope that makes sense.

Diacetyl is a by product of fermentation, At the end of fermentation when the yeast begins to go dormant, it starts storing reserves, when it does this it begins to absorb fermentation precursors such as diacetyl, acetaldehyde etc and breakes them down into flavourless/odorless compounds.

ALL yeast produce diacetyl. There is no avoiding that, some produce it in noticable amounts (irish yeast), others dont. It's always best to avoid diacetyl in your final product by keeping fermentation temps stable. This is a surefire way todo it. It will aid in reabsorbption of diacetyl as with cold spikes yest tends to drop out and not reabsorb the diacetyl it has put out. Even better is to warm up at the end of fermentation and more yeast (the ones which where about to say goodnight) will reabsorb diacetyl too, rather than floc out.

I hope this makes sense.

 

[Katherine]

Thanks it does...

Thanks to you all!

 

[Thirsty Boy]

If its at the end of fermentation or very close to. Yes! Crank the temp up and let the yeasties do their thing. Theres no hurt in doing a diacetyl reast so i dont understand why people avoid it. Unless of course you are stressed for time with the beer and need to get it somewhere.

Ive never had diacetyl in any of my beers until the latest palealemania comp. I had to speed up the end of fermentation on my AIPA and rushed the diacetyl rest, I ended up 1 of the bottles riddled with diacetyl according to my judging sheet. I'm unsure why only 1 of them was noted with having diacetyl. My only conclusion is it kicked off some tertiary/residual fermentation in the bottle. Im at the end of the keg and she definitely doesnt taste of any diacetyl. on the other hand It does have alot of crystal sweetness maybe it was incorrect judging?! who knows.

You might just have had an infected bottle - pedio (and some other spoilage bacteria) pumps out the diacetyl. Sometimes it might be the first sign of a low level infection

I'm with you, I d'rest everything. Although, i do a rising temperature fermentation on nearly everything anyway... so it just kind of happens really. Also starting your fermentation temperatures a little low can help - the faster and harder the yeast start fermenting, the more diacetyl they will pump out - start em up slow, below the main ferment temp and let them rise up to it over a day or two. A you will rarely ever need a D-rest. I hate the stuff and I am very sensitive to it ... couldn't stand it if I turned out beers with a diacetyl problem.

 

[Fourstar]

You might just have had an infected bottle - pedio (and some other spoilage bacteria) pumps out the diacetyl. Sometimes it might be the first sign of a low level infection

Interesting Thirsty. It may have been so, i doubt it was an infection thou as it was merely 24-36 hours into the bottle at the time of judging. Not to mention i napisan and starsan'd. does pedio give off any specific phenols/esters?

 

[acoulson]

You might just have had an infected bottle - pedio (and some other spoilage bacteria) pumps out the diacetyl. Sometimes it might be the first sign of a low level infection

Sorry to butt in but I think thirsty boy is on the money. Especially in the first 24 to 36 hours when the low DO(dissolved oxygen) levels. After this, as the DO drops to zero the LAB's (Lactic acid bacteria) would stop or slow down their growth.

Fourstar- It's great to read a post (about diacetyl) from someone who clearly knows their brewing chemistry and the practical applications...like music to my ears..or is that eyes :blink:

 

[Fourstar]

Sorry to butt in but I think thirsty boy is on the money. Especially in the first 24 to 36 hours when the low DO(dissolved oxygen) levels. After this, as the DO drops to zero the LAB's (Lactic acid bacteria) would stop or slow down their growth.

Fourstar- It's great to read a post (about diacetyl) from someone who clearly knows their brewing chemistry and the practical applications...like music to my ears..or is that eyes :blink:

Cheers mate, interesting concept. Im still dubious of this as i relentless with cleaning/sanitisation not to mention all of my beer is force carbed in the keg, i purge all bottles with CO2 before filling as well as cap on foam. I no longer bottle prime, unless im filling excess from the fermenter (whcih is still a very rare case). Either way, i cant fix it now. The reason why i was dubious is the same beer was entered into the Pale ale side of the comp with no negative feedback and scored 10 points higher(avg'd score)... go figure. Not to mention is was 1.5 Points (per judge) away from a placing.

 

[crundle]

Got a Munich Dunkel fermenting atm, almost finished, only 4 gravity points to go. I will leave it for a week further and then give it a few days to raise in temperature before kegging. The samples taste amazing, so damn malty!

Crundle

 

[brettprevans]

Got a Munich Dunkel fermenting atm, almost finished, only 4 gravity points to go. I will leave it for a week further and then give it a few days to raise in temperature before kegging. The samples taste amazing, so damn malty!

Crundle

recipe crundle, recipe. share the love

 

[crundle]

BeerSmith Recipe Printout - http://www.beersmith.com

Recipe: crundle's munich dunkel

Brewer: Matt Milburn

Asst Brewer:

Style: Munich Dunkel

TYPE: All Grain

Taste: (35.0)



Recipe Specifications

--------------------------

Batch Size: 25.00 L

Boil Size: 35.34 L

Estimated OG: 1.055 SG

Estimated Color: 38.1 EBC

Estimated IBU: 21.2 IBU

Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %

Boil Time: 60 Minutes



Ingredients:

------------

Amount Item Type % or IBU

5.55 kg Munich I (Weyermann) (14.0 EBC) Grain 94.87 %

0.20 kg Carafa Special II (Weyermann) (817.6 EBC) Grain 3.42 %

0.10 kg Melanoidin (Weyermann) (59.1 EBC) Grain 1.71 %

28.00 gm Hallertauer, New Zealand [5.60 %] (60 minHops 16.9 IBU

5.00 gm Hallertauer, New Zealand [5.60 %] (40 minHops 2.3 IBU

10.00 gm Hallertauer, New Zealand [5.60 %] (20 minHops 2.0 IBU

1 Pkgs Munich Lager (Wyeast Labs #2308) [Starter Yeast-Lager





Mash Schedule: Full volume Single Infusion, Medium body, Mash Out

Total Grain Weight: 5.85 kg

----------------------------

BIAB - single infusion full volume brewing.

Added some melanoidin to try to account for not giving it a decoction mash. Fermentation almost over, will give it a diacetyl rest before kegging. Used the 2308 as part of a Beerbelly challenge.

cheers,

Crundle

 

[Katherine]

5.7kg of Munich 1
180g Caramunich 1

Hallertau 35g 60 min
Hallertau 15g 20 min

Wyeast Danish Lager

Mashed at 66
Mashed out 76

 

[blackbock]

I've been sampling my Dunkel as it ages and it is superb. I put it largely down to the yeast, as I have brewed with similar grainbills before only the flavour didn't have quite the same depth to them. WLP833 is an absolute stand out yeast for this style as far as I'm concerned. I also screwed up my first temperature rest, heated to what I thought was 66 but later measured 72. WTF...anyhow it worked beautifully.

 

[drsmurto]

I've been sampling my Dunkel as it ages and it is superb. I put it largely down to the yeast, as I have brewed with similar grainbills before only the flavour didn't have quite the same depth to them. WLP833 is an absolute stand out yeast for this style as far as I'm concerned. I also screwed up my first temperature rest, heated to what I thought was 66 but later measured 72. WTF...anyhow it worked beautifully.

Agree big time. My dunkel using 833 is going down far too easily. Even my swill drinking mates couldnt believe how easy 'something that dark' was to drink. Will be a regular here!

Nice and malty but still finishes dry. :icon_drunk:

 

[Stubbie]

Mmmmmmmmmmm.........WLP833/Bock yeast, or the Wyeast equivalent, 2206/Bavarian Lager. Tis my favourite lager yeast. A Munich Dunkel gets the guernsey for my last lager of the season, just as soon as the ex Vienna yeast cake is available.

Stubbie

 

[drsmurto]

Mmmmmmmmmmm.........WLP833/Bock yeast, or the Wyeast equivalent, 2206/Bavarian Lager. Tis my favourite lager yeast. A Munich Dunkel gets the guernsey for my last lager of the season, just as soon as the ex Vienna yeast cake is available.

Stubbie

:icon_offtopic: Care to share your Vienna recipe Stubbie? I've got 1/3 of a yeastcale of the 833 yeast and have been thinking about what to do next. German pils, okky but a vienna lager sounds yummo.

 

[Katherine]

5.7kg of Munich 1
180g Caramunich 1

Hallertau 35g 60 min
Hallertau 15g 20 min

Wyeast Danish Lager

Mashed at 66
Mashed out 76

How light can a Munich Dunkel be?

 

[brettprevans]

How light can a Munich Dunkel be?

dj vu KT

SRM: 14-28 : Deep copper to dark brown, often with a red or garnet tint. Creamy, light to medium tan head. Usually clear, although murky unfiltered versions exist. from bjcp of course