Style Of The Week 22/8/07 - Munich Dunkel

[beers]

I did this one last year.. & I'm thinking it's about time to make it again. Probably won't change a thing as it turned out as one of the best beers I've ever brewed.

Type: All Grain
Date: 25/05/2009
Batch Size: 21.00 L
Boil Size: 24.00 L
Boil Time: 90 min
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00

Measured Original Gravity: 1.055 SG
Bitterness: 22.8 IBU
Est Color: 38.8 EBC

Ingredients

Amount Item Type % or IBU
4000.00 gm Munich I (Weyermann) (16.0 EBC) Grain 76.92 %
1000.00 gm Munich, Dark (Joe White) (29.6 EBC) Grain 19.23 %
100.00 gm Carafa Special II (Weyermann) (1150.0 EBC) Grain 1.92 %
100.00 gm Carared (Weyermann) (43.0 EBC) Grain 1.92 %
12.00 gm Super Alpha [11.00 %] (90 min) Hops 15.5 IBU
10.00 gm Super Alpha (cube) [11.00 %] (20 min) Hops 7.3 IBU
0.25 tsp Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) (Mash 60.0 min) Misc
0.75 tsp Calcium Chloride (Mash 60.0 min) Misc
1 Pkgs German Lager (White Labs #WLP830) Yeast-Lager

 

[big78sam]

I'm attempting a dunkel with what I have on hand. Recipe at the moment is


5kg Weyerman Light Minuch
200g Melanoiden
150g caramalt
100g JW choc

50g Hallertau (2.4% aa) @ 60 min
Horizon (9%) @ 60 min to get me to around 25 IBUs

Wyeast 2124

I would ideally be using carafa special instead of choc but I dont have any left. The other option is roast malt for colour. I'd need to use less but I imagine this will give a roasty/bitter character that is not for this style. Does this sound right?

The other concern I have is that I bought the Hallertau not realising it was only 2.4%aa. So if I use a neutral bittering hop like horizon to get to the IBUs I want will this suffice?

 

[drsmurto]

I'd personally ditch the crystal but that's a personal thing.

I like a nice dry and crisp dunkel. I find crystal out of place in any lager.

Mash low would be my tip. 64-65C for 90 mins.

Bittering hops only are good in this malty beer and i in the past have used perle, tettnang and magnum. Dont see why you couldn't use horizon.

 

[davewaldo]

I've been doing some searching and can't find a definitive answer....

What sort of water profile would you be looking at for this beer? I've seen recommendations from moderately hard to soft... Some say low sulphate, others just add calcium.

I'm building brew water from rainwater so I can do either easily enough....

any help would be great, thanks guys

EDIT: I should add, I'm not interested in merely copying the "Munich Profile". I'm trying to learn when and how to make additions (and the flavours they contribute) rather than blindly follow profiles. Cheers!

 

[drsmurto]

I've been doing some searching and can't find a definitive answer....

What sort of water profile would you be looking at for this beer? I've seen recommendations from moderately hard to soft... Some say low sulphate, others just add calcium.

I'm building brew water from rainwater so I can do either easily enough....

any help would be great, thanks guys

EDIT: I should add, I'm not interested in merely copying the "Munich Profile". I'm trying to learn when and how to make additions (and the flavours they contribute) rather than blindly follow profiles. Cheers!

I use a malty profile in a beer such as this.

Assuming your rainwater is a blank canvas.... for each 35L add 6g of CaSO4 and 6g of CaCl2.

This results in Ca 87, SO4 96, Cl 82ppm.

 

[Wolfy]

What sort of water profile would you be looking at for this beer?

EDIT: I should add, I'm not interested in merely copying the "Munich Profile". I'm trying to learn when and how to make additions (and the flavours they contribute) rather than blindly follow profiles. Cheers!

I use a malty profile in a beer such as this.

Assuming your rainwater is a blank canvas.... for each 35L add 6g of CaSO4 and 6g of CaCl2.

Is there a reason not to match a Munich-like profile?
Assuming a 'blank canvas' ... just enough Chalk (CaCO3) to give 50ppm Ca and a tiny smidgen of Epsom Salt (MgSO4 *7H2O).
That way JP's 'Residual Alkalinity' and the 'Chloride to Sulfate Ratio' both balance well for a 'malty' profile.

 

[drsmurto]

Is there a reason not to match a Munich-like profile?
Assuming a 'blank canvas' ... just enough Chalk (CaCO3) to give 50ppm Ca and a tiny smidgen of Epsom Salt (MgSO4 *7H2O).
That way JP's 'Residual Alkalinity' and the 'Chloride to Sulfate Ratio' both balance well for a 'malty' profile.

Yet to see any legislation that requires a brewer in any city to use the water of that city or if using it, not be able to modify it.

So why assume you have to copy a water profile of a city to copy it's beer?

The beer style evolved in certain places due to the water, that doesn't lock it in for eternity.

I base my water profiles on what i want the beer to taste like hence a malty profile for a malty lager.

Only my opinion so take it with a grain of salt. :icon_drunk:

 

[Florian]

Dr S, how would you compare your Munich2 Dunkel from last year to your Munich1 ones?

My next brew day will be for this style and I'm contemplating if it's worth getting a full sack of Munich2 in a bulk buy beforehand.

EDIT: agree with you on the salt profile, always wondered why people copied city profiles for all sorts of old and modern beers, surely most of them would have adjusted water profiles anyway. An example would be Dortmund, where they traditionally have had very hard water, but apparently now use quite soft water to brew their Dortmunder style beers (although I have only heard this and obviously have no proof whatsoever).

 

[drsmurto]

Dr S, how would you compare your Munich2 Dunkel from last year to your Munich1 ones?

My next brew day will be for this style and I'm contemplating if it's worth getting a full sack of Munich2 in a bulk buy beforehand.

EDIT: agree with you on the salt profile, always wondered why people copied city profiles for all sorts of old and modern beers, surely most of them would have adjusted water profiles anyway. An example would be Dortmund, where they traditionally have had very hard water, but apparently now use quite soft water to brew their Dortmunder style beers (although I have only heard this and obviously have no proof whatsoever).

The munich 2 was uber malty and :icon_drunk: :icon_drool2:

I'd say it was a better beer for that reason, finished a touch higher in FG from memory but still very sessionable.

I buy Munich 2 (weyermann) by the bag as well. Goes very nicely in a dusseldorf alt too.

 

[Wolfy]

Yet to see any legislation that requires a brewer in any city to use the water of that city or if using it, not be able to modify it.

So why assume you have to copy a water profile of a city to copy it's beer?

The beer style evolved in certain places due to the water, that doesn't lock it in for eternity.

I base my water profiles on what i want the beer to taste like hence a malty profile for a malty lager.

Only my opinion so take it with a grain of salt. :icon_drunk:

I don't disagree with your logic, it's more than resonable to expect that breweries adjust their water chemistry as required.
However, nor did I suggest or assume that one needs to copy a water profile, hence the question remains.

Munich - where this beer was developed - has carbonate water, which along with the information in the "Key Concepts in Water Treatment" .pdf should match darker (brown, to brown/black) and malty beers. Hence by adding a small amount of Chalk and a very little bit of Epsom Salt gives a minimum of 50ppm Ca, results in a small amount of carbonate (about half as much as the actual water profile) and matches the type of water for a 'malty' type beer.
This will give a 'Residual Alkalinity' value suitable for a 'Dark amber to copper beer' and a malty 'Chloride to Sulfate Ratio'.

The alternate is to use Calcium Chloride and Calcium Sulphate which can also build a malty profile, however due to the lack of carbonates, the 'Residual Alkalinity' will be significantly lower.

So back to the question ... is there a good reason why one should use Calcium Chloride and Calcium Sulphate over (a very small amount of) Chalk to build a water profile for this beer?

 

[Tony]

I buy Munich 2 (weyermann) by the bag as well. Goes very nicely in a dusseldorf alt too.

I only buy munich 2 these days by the bag.

I just adjust the malt character of the beer by increasing or decreasing the amount of Pilsner malt in the recipe.

Munich Dunkel and Altbier are made preety much the same in my house. Munich 2, Pilsner and Carafa Spec 2. I just adjust how much Munich 2 i use depending on how malty i want the beer. Usually more in winter, less in summer.

cheers

 

[Florian]

Thanks Dr and Tony, I'll definately get a sack then. Can't wait, am really loving my dark lagers lately, seems the way to go for a while.

 

[drsmurto]

I don't disagree with your logic, it's more than resonable to expect that breweries adjust their water chemistry as required.
However, nor did I suggest or assume that one needs to copy a water profile, hence the question remains.

Munich - where this beer was developed - has carbonate water, which along with the information in the "Key Concepts in Water Treatment" .pdf should match darker (brown, to brown/black) and malty beers. Hence by adding a small amount of Chalk and a very little bit of Epsom Salt gives a minimum of 50ppm Ca, results in a small amount of carbonate (about half as much as the actual water profile) and matches the type of water for a 'malty' type beer.
This will give a 'Residual Alkalinity' value suitable for a 'Dark amber to copper beer' and a malty 'Chloride to Sulfate Ratio'.

The alternate is to use Calcium Chloride and Calcium Sulphate which can also build a malty profile, however due to the lack of carbonates, the 'Residual Alkalinity' will be significantly lower.

So back to the question ... is there a good reason why one should use Calcium Chloride and Calcium Sulphate over (a very small amount of) Chalk to build a water profile for this beer?

Why?

I've read about the concept of residual alkalinity and have never been convinced by the theory. In my opinion, wearing my scientist hat for the moment, the argument for residual alkalinity is based on colour without taking into account starting and final gravities, bitterness, type of malts used as well as beer style. It's a very narrow approach to something which is very complex. In simple systems you can take a single variable approach but in complex systems you have to take a more synergistic approach. The chemistry/biochemistry in the mash tun is complex. The residual alkalinity concept, in my opinion, is far too simple to be useful.

Compare JW trad ale with a floor malted marris otter. One produces a much more malty beer but the colour difference is effectively zero. This isn't taken into account in the above theory. The same argument could be applied to american 2 and 6-row with the differing protein content. What about mashing at 63C vs 70C and the resulting difference in the FG of the 2 beers. All these examples are meant to show is that brewing is not simple and as such, a simple theory is inadequate.

I am not a fan of adding carbonates to my beer and would never add magnesium. Neither are required in my opinion. To make a beer malty and/or hoppy and get the Ca level up to 80-100ppm all you need is CaCl2 and CaSO4.

And as always, these are just my opinions. You'll find a few people of this forum have them. Another opinion of mine is that water chemistry is extremely complex and far too many people on this forum have no idea what they are doing. Anyone measuring a weight using a volume measurement (teaspoons) falls into this category.

Cheers
DrSmurto

p.s. Wolfy, this is in no way an attack on you. I just felt like letting off some steam and along comes a debate on chemistry.

 

[manticle]

So far removed from being an expert in water chem it's not funny but the above is pretty much how I approach it too. I add salts to make the beer profile I want, not the water profile I'm told it needs.

Every brewing science text I've ever read suggests avoiding adding carbonates and even going to the effort of removing them if they are present.

Even the key concepts doc you refer to wolfy, suggests magnesium and chalk are best left out - chalk possibly only in very dark beers (which dunkel isn't really in my opinion when compared to stout).

I remember Thirsty Boy posting something about dark beers being the only beers that will carry chalk but that doesn't mean they actually benefit from its addition.

 

[Wolfy]

Why?

Why? ... because the water where this beer was developed has some carbonates, using CaCl2 and CaSO4 does not give you any at all (assuming a starting blank-slate).
It may be that the answer to my question is 'carbonates do not belong in beer-brewing-water' or 'a Munich Dunkel is not really a dark enough beer to need carbonates'.

Ps: I wouldn't be asking a question (simply to debate something) if I already knew the answer, nor do I suggest that I know what I'm doing - hence the question - but at least I do measure salt additions by .01g cocaine-scales.

Even the key concepts doc you refer to wolfy, suggests magnesium and chalk are best left out - chalk possibly only in very dark beers (which dunkel isn't really in my opinion when compared to stout).

I remember Thirsty Boy posting something about dark beers being the only beers that will carry chalk but that doesn't mean they actually benefit from its addition.

I recall you suggesting that Chalk is not a good thing, hence the question in the first place.

 

[technobabble66]

NECRO time!!

Planning on trying my hand at a Munich Dunkel. So after a truckload of reading and checking many different recipes, i've put this together.
I'd love some feedback.

Vol = 26L
OG=1.045
FG=1.007
IBU=21.5
EBC=44
alc%=5.3

4.4kg Munich (Viking) (88%)
0.2kg Aromatic (Ding) (4%)
0.15kg Melanoiden (Wey) (3%)
0.15kg Midnight Wheat (Briess) (3%)
0.1kg Acidulated (Wey) (2%)

10g Hall Mitt + 15g Spalt + 15g EKG all @FWH

35/55/63/66/72/78 for 1/5/65/20/20/2
Probably 2 decoctions - 1st is 35->55, 2nd is either 63->66 or 66->72. Maybe even do 3!

Yeast = S-189, fermented ~15°C
------------------------------------------------

So the main concerns are:

1) Aromatic malt. Is this Aromatic a silly idea? and if not too silly, is it better to use Aromatic or Biscuit?
The idea with Aromatic is to amplify the maltiness a bit more, and add a little more complexity - i want to be salivating on the first whiff!!. Biscuit was another option, and was tempting to add a little toastiness, but went with Aromatic instead.
This is probably the main thing i have doubts over with the recipe: Aromatic, Biscuit, something else, or just more Munich?

2) no pilsner. Many MD recipes don't use pilsner, so i thought i'd go with straight Munich. Also, i foolishly just tossed the last kg of Munich2 into my Irish Red currently mashing, rather than save it for this. So i thought the Viking Munich may be a little on the light side compared to the typical Munich mix used in those MDs that have a decent %-age of pilsner malt included.

3) 3% Melanoiden. It's a bit, but not much. Use more?

4) No crystal. Happy to keep it crystal free, though i certainly enjoy crystal in some beers. Partly keeping it out as i already have 4 malts in there plus Acidulated, so i'm trying hard to not throw too many things in there.

5) Number of malts used. As per 4), i'm using 4 malts plus Acidulated. As manticle is familiar, i have a serious problem of throwing in too many malts into any recipe. And i've generally come to recognise that most beer styles seem to be best when just a few malts are used and they're allowed to shine. So, I'm not entirely sure if i've got too many in this and it'll be a bit "muddied"; or if (like a stout) it's a style that can benefit from a few extra spec malts and i should either increase the amounts of what i've got in there already, or add something i've missed.


Otherwise, i think i'm pretty happy with the way it's looking at the moment but any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

 

[technobabble66]

OK. Since the above post (& overwhelming response h34r: ), the recipe has evolved a little.

It's basically 85% Munich, plus 15% split between Biscuit (300g), Melanoiden (150g), Midnight wheat & Acidulated; with hopefully 1-2 decoctions & S-189 for the yeast.

The big question i have is should i split the 85% Munich with a little Pilsner, say 0.5kg(10%)?

I'm keen to keep that base as all Munich, but i'm a little concerned with achieving full conversion & attenuation to get a nice dry MD. I'm after a very malty but dry MD.
My concern is generated from ~all of the "no Pilsner" MDs i've seen basically have just Munich (1&/or 2) with 1-3% dark roast for colour. Whereas the ones with some other/extra specs seem to also include the use of 10-20% Pils malt - though that could be because they're following the "kitchen sink" philosophy.

FWIW, a quick calculation indicates the recipe should achieve ~41.5°Lintner, which is over the critical 40°Lintner that theoretically full conversion, though it's cutting it fine.
Also, i'm assuming the 1-2 decoctions will help with conversion and may compensate for the lack of extra enzymatic power from the base.

Any opinions/suggestions?

 

[kaiserben]

Probably just re-hashing what I already posted in this thread: http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/91233-all-munich-dunkel-anyone-got-advice-they-wanna-share/

No pils in my dunkel recipe. I wanted just Munich 1 and Carafa Special 2. Was too light in colour so I added in some CaraMunich and CaraAroma till colour was within style guidelines. I was very happy with my resulting beer (though it took 3 months of conditioning to before it became amazing).

 

[technobabble66]

Ok. Thanks kb!
So you were 9-10% (non-roasted) spec malt. Similar to mine, so thunderbirds are go!
Cheers

 

[yankinoz]

I've aimed more for the Czech Dunkel style but less sweet and have done several along the same lines: Weyermann Munich 2 and enough pilsner malt to assure conversion of specialty malts: Caramunich III and Shepherd's Delight at roughly five percent each. Hochkurz mash, often with intermediate step at 65 to reduce sweetness. There is a slight hint of roast, and on lagering the SD fruitiness rounds into a rich maltiness. S-189 works very well. Hops mainly for bittering, nothing later than -15 minutes. Continental noble hops, Mt Hood, Liberty, even EKG or Willamette.