Style Of The Week 21/6/06 - Altbier

[A3k]

Hey guys,
How does this recipe sound? From what Ive been reading, it seems pretty good, but just want to make sure.

Recipe: Al's Alt
Brewer: Al
Asst Brewer:
Style: Dusseldorf Altbier
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 50.00 L
Boil Size: 60.64 L
Estimated OG: 1.051 SG
Estimated Color: 25.6 EBC
Estimated IBU: 43.5 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 80.00 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
3.33 kg Munich I (Weyermann) (14.0 EBC) 32.68 %
3.33 kg Munich II (Weyermann) (16.7 EBC) 32.68 %
3.33 kg Pilsner (Weyermann) (3.3 EBC) 32.68 %
0.20 kg Carafa Special II (Weyermann) (817.6 EBC) 1.96 %
154.81 gm Spalter [5.80 %] (60 min) 43.5 IBU
2 Pkgs German Ale (Wyeast Labs #1007) Yeast-Ale


I was looking at the recipe posted by Raven, but when I put it into beersmith, the colour was much lower. Hence the Carafa Special.

Is the bitterness ratio okay, or should I push it up closer to 1:1?

I was in Dusseldorf a few weeks ago and loved the beers. Hopefully it comes close to Uerige.

I dont think Im gonna put late hops in, as I didnt really detect much in Uerige.

Thoughts?

Cheers
Al

 

[raven19]

I was looking at the recipe posted by Raven, but when I put it into beersmith, the colour was much lower. Hence the Carafa Special.

My Beersmith colour numbers are sometimes all over the shop, old grains with incorrect EBC values - so apologies if my colour numbers throw things a bit. I previously has SRM not EBC as the colour type in BS, but typed the OTHER one in accidentally...

Recipe looks the goods, decoction will also give you some colour if you prefer to go that way.

Grain bill and OG:BU looks good too.

Mash Temp?

I think the single hop addition works well as per your recipe also.

 

[A3k]

Cheers Raven,
I might do a decoction to get to mash out. May as well hey!
Im thinking Ill do a 65C infusion Mash to keep it pretty dry.

As for the colour, beersmith seems a little weird when it comes to colour and efficiency.
Beersmith doesnt change the colour of a beer when you change the efficiency.

So if I get higher efficiency, then Ill end up with a stronger beer, but the colour will stay the same.
If I then reduce the malt to compensate, beersmith shows it much lighter in colour.

This may be correct, Im not sure. I guess it depends on what is causing the difference in efficiency.
If it is caused by poor conversion, then I reckon Id agree with Beersmith (ie efficiency doesnt change colour). BUT I reckon its more likely to be due to how efficiently one can extract the goods out of the grain, and I would think that this would also extract more colour.

I did just check your munich colours compared to mine, and they were different too. I need to change mine to match Beerbelly.
[EDIT] just changed and didn't make heaps of difference

Cheers,

 

[eamonnfoley]

Hey guys,
How does this recipe sound? From what I've been reading, it seems pretty good, but just want to make sure.

Recipe: Al's Alt
Brewer: Al
Asst Brewer:
Style: Dusseldorf Altbier
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 50.00 L
Boil Size: 60.64 L
Estimated OG: 1.051 SG
Estimated Color: 25.6 EBC
Estimated IBU: 43.5 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 80.00 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
3.33 kg Munich I (Weyermann) (14.0 EBC) 32.68 %
3.33 kg Munich II (Weyermann) (16.7 EBC) 32.68 %
3.33 kg Pilsner (Weyermann) (3.3 EBC) 32.68 %
0.20 kg Carafa Special II (Weyermann) (817.6 EBC) 1.96 %
154.81 gm Spalter [5.80 %] (60 min) 43.5 IBU
2 Pkgs German Ale (Wyeast Labs #1007) Yeast-Ale


I was looking at the recipe posted by Raven, but when I put it into beersmith, the colour was much lower. Hence the Carafa Special.

Is the bitterness ratio okay, or should I push it up closer to 1:1?

I was in Dusseldorf a few weeks ago and loved the beers. Hopefully it comes close to Uerige.

I don't think I'm gonna put late hops in, as I didn't really detect much in Uerige.

Thoughts?

Cheers
Al

If you want to get close to Zum Uerige - you definitely need to late hop (for flavour more than aroma).... There is a big raw spalt hop flavour in that beer. I was there in Sept, my favourite beer in the world. If you want Zum Schlussel, you need to hop more for aroma than flavour (its a more delicate hop character).

The straight 60min addition might get you closer to a Fuchschen or Schumacher.

 

[jbirbeck]

recipe looks the duck's nuts. I like to push the IBU to 50 or even 55 and I'd mash 63/64. I wouldn't late hop but you could use some of your Spalt (maybe a third) as a FWH for some nice subtle flavours there.

I'd ferment on the lower end of the scale too to limit the yeast esters to a subtle range but I don't like 1007 as much as the kolsch yeasts. Also on a side by side tasting a while ago with teh Stamm challenge it was the beer fermented at 13 rather than 16 than won the day.

Love an Alt, must do another.

 

[drsmurto]

Looks like a nice grist A3K although i agree with RK in that upping the IBU to 50 would work better. All that munich will handle the extra bitterness with ease.

I currently have an Alt on tap with some late Spalt and it's devine. The subtle spiciness works so well in this style. :icon_drool2:

 

[A3k]

Cheers fellas,

Does the Carafa Special II addition seem like too much?

As for ferment, 14-15C seem okay? I dont think I have any of the kolsch yeast on hand anymore, so will go the 1007 for this one.

Im a bit torn at the moment about the late flavour hops. I reckon Ill try just the 60min addition for the first attempt, but will FWH it.
I reckon Im going to start making this regularly, so will start playing around with it. This was my favourite style I tried in Germany.

Will conform, and up the hopping to 50IBU

Honestly, I didnt love the hop nose on Zum Schlussel, nice beer, but the aroma made it seem a bit generic. I did go straight from Uerige to Schlussel though, so I may not have got the best out of the Zum Schlussel.
I brought a Schlussel back with me, so will crack it once Ive made mine.

Cheers,
Al

 

[drsmurto]

Cheers fellas,

Does the Carafa Special II addition seem like too much?

As for ferment, 14-15C seem okay? I dont think I have any of the kolsch yeast on hand anymore, so will go the 1007 for this one.

Im a bit torn at the moment about the late flavour hops. I reckon Ill try just the 60min addition for the first attempt, but will FWH it.
I reckon Im going to start making this regularly, so will start playing around with it. This was my favourite style I tried in Germany.

Will conform, and up the hopping to 50IBU

Honestly, I didnt love the hop nose on Zum Schlussel, nice beer, but the aroma made it seem a bit generic. I did go straight from Uerige to Schlussel though, so I may not have got the best out of the Zum Schlussel.
I brought a Schlussel back with me, so will crack it once Ive made mine.

Cheers,
Al

2% carafa seems normal to me, it's really only there for colour adjustment and to (perhaps) lend a slighlty drier finish.

The Stammtisch Alt is a regular at my place. More often that not i use only a single bittering addition of Spalt to 50 IBU. I've used tettnang as a flavour/aroma hop before and liked it.

WY1007 fermented at 14-15C works well in my opinion - dont forget to lager this for as long as you can.

 

[A3k]

dont forget to lager this for as long as you can.

Bloody lagering. My least favourite step (after cleaning up).

Maybe i should make a bigger batch and leave half of it for a few months.

 

[A3k]

OK, last question:
I'm planning on using Rain Water. Any tips on desired water profile / salt additions i should be using?

Thanks.
Al

 

[eamonnfoley]

OK, last question:
I'm planning on using Rain Water. Any tips on desired water profile / salt additions i should be using?

Thanks.
Al

I shoot for a balanced CL/SO4 ratio, or just balanced towards Cl, and at least 50ppm of Ca. Braukaiser has some information on his website.

 

[stl]

WY1007 fermented at 14-15C works well in my opinion - dont forget to lager this for as long as you can.

Works well? Big understatement in my book, I love that stuff...

..and when you're done, might I suggest you try something like this recipe (only I wouldn't call it a Helles).

 

[drsmurto]

OK, last question:
I'm planning on using Rain Water. Any tips on desired water profile / salt additions i should be using?

Thanks.
Al

I use rainwater for all my beers and as Foles mentions, a balanced Cl/SO4 ratio is good for malt driven beers.

For 35L i use 6g each of CaSO4 and CaCl2 giving Ca 87, SO4 96, Cl 82 ppm (based on distilled water as a base)

 

[A3k]

Alright,
Ive finally made this one, but its in the fermenter at 14 and going strong.

Unfortunately I forgot to put the salt additions in for the mash. Remembered during the boil, so added it then. Hopefully there are no adverse effects, I still got over 80% so cant be too bad.

One question I have though is why the need for such a long lagering period.
Is it for:
a) clarity,
B) to clean up the yeast
c) or to rounding the flavours

if its just for
a) I can filter. (still lager a few weeks anyway)
B) Im a little confused due to this statement on the wyeast site (Beers mature rapidly, even when cold fermentation is used. Low or no detectable diacetyl.)
c) no thats cool, Ill lager it no worries.

Cheers,
Al

 

[raven19]

I brewed my Fourth version a few days ago and pitched the yeast on Sunday, but used wlp036 yeast cake from DrS. Mine is sitting at 18deg.

If brewing to spec, BJCP calls for 'brilliant clarity', then lagered to produce a 'cleaner, smoother pallete' compared to most ales.

I tend to crash chill for as long as I can hold out for, then filter, then keg. Then sample over the ensuing weeks and enjoy the improvement of the beer over time.

 

[drsmurto]

Alright,
Ive finally made this one, but its in the fermenter at 14 and going strong.

Unfortunately I forgot to put the salt additions in for the mash. Remembered during the boil, so added it then. Hopefully there are no adverse effects, I still got over 80% so cant be too bad.

One question I have though is why the need for such a long lagering period.
Is it for:
a) clarity,
B) to clean up the yeast
c) or to rounding the flavours

if its just for
a) I can filter. (still lager a few weeks anyway)
B) Im a little confused due to this statement on the wyeast site (Beers mature rapidly, even when cold fermentation is used. Low or no detectable diacetyl.)
c) no thats cool, Ill lager it no worries.

Cheers,
Al

A, B and C.

A filter will do A and B.

C, in my opinion and based largely on wine making science, requires yeast contact and filtering removes so much of the yeast that this step is vastly slowed down.

I sold my filter recently as i spend more time conditioning my beers through extended cold conditioning/lagering. To my taste this has improved my beers. A 'fresh' beer to me tastes raw and unbalanced. Too many flavours competing with each other.

 

[Midnight Brew]

Going for this on Tuesday with what I have on hand.

54% Pilsner JW
40% Munich I JW
4% Crystal JW
2% Carafa Special II
Hallertau FWH to 45-50 IBU

Mash/Time
55/66/76
5/60/10

OG 1048
Wy Kolsch 2565

Thinking about switching to the Kolsch strain for a few beers I have planned while its winter.

 

[Bribie G]

Looks the go, rather than the Kolsch have you considered the German Ale yeast? Wy1007 or the K-97 dried yeast from CraftBrewer? or is it too late?

I did a spectacular Alt last year on 1007 although it tasted like shyte until it had been lagered for a couple of months then lurverly, I've got some K-97 in and will have a crack at another one as part of the Comp rounds this year.

 

[Midnight Brew]

Looks the go, rather than the Kolsch have you considered the German Ale yeast? Wy1007 or the K-97 dried yeast from CraftBrewer? or is it too late?

I did a spectacular Alt last year on 1007 although it tasted like shyte until it had been lagered for a couple of months then lurverly, I've got some K-97 in and will have a crack at another one as part of the Comp rounds this year.

I'll give that a go when I put in my next order. Beauty of it is Im no chilling and its a double batch so more then likely the second cube will be on a different yeast. Ive had the Kolsch yeast since xmas so its overdue for a good use and will follow it up with a fake pils. Going more for the kolsch strain so it conditions quick, also may throw some of this yeast onto a citra apa I made as an experiment. Seems like a nice strain for the winter months of melbourne

 

[Nicko_Cairns]

Hi guys,

I'm fairly new to brewing, so if my question doesn't make sense that's why!

Some guys talked about adding oak chips at secondary, how do you prepare the chips and how much do you add? Do you just sanitize them first?

Secondly, with crash chilling how cold and how long? I'll have a search around the forum for crash chilling as I'd like to try it.

Thanks,

Nicko.