Storing recultured yeast temps

[Ducatiboy stu]

But there where fermentables that the yeast used up and there is enough to make a starter. You are looking at much greater volumes when storing than what you get from a single bottle.

 

[DJ_L3ThAL]

Yep, page 198 for a description of water immersion, and page 192 for the table of methods/shelf life.

Disclaimer, I don't use distilled water, I use Melbourne tap water (close enough), and boil for at least 10 minutes (to dechlorinate and sterlise). Here's a crappy picture of a vial of La Sirene's Saison yeast, harvested June 2012 (sits crystal clear, but a bit of agitation moving the vial to take a pic). Oops, tubes are 30mL not 50 as stated, I'd guess the yeast has compacted down to 2-3mL or so.

I think another member may be brewing with this one soon, so may get some more data to back up the viability of yeasts stored 12 months + under water.

I will report the results of using this yeast slurry in about 2 weeks after I create the starter

 

[Yob]

But there where fermentables that the yeast used up and there is enough to make a starter.

agreed, but you are talking a priming amount of sugar, not a 1020 wort, while it's true that the yeast will remain active at a lower temp, this will favour 'some' of the yeast but not all of them, some will be dormant. It's also true that there is enough to make a starter, that doesnt mean that it's in great health to begin with.. If you are suggesting that a bottle shipped across the country and incorrectly stored at a random bottle o has 'good enough' yeast to use in a starter, I'd have to disagree. (not that you have said that )

Anything I store has been let ferment right out to build up their glycogen and trehalose reserves, the reading that Ive done suggests that this is an optimal storage situation. The colder it's stored the slower they metabolise those reserves and the better the vitality.

Ive stored, and recently used, a slurry from September 13 2013, rinsed it, pitched 50ml into a 2l starter and was done in 36hrs on the kitchen table. a 4 month old slurry, un-rinsed with beer on top, that fermented a IPA from 1072 to 1012 in a week at 17'c. Not too bad for just fridge temps.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

All I am saying is that yeast stored in mild wort in the fridge can ( and does ) last 12mnths.

Its a method that I and others have used over the years with great success.

It was the method used when liquids first came out and we didnt have fancy things like stir plates, slants etc.

It is simple and effective

 

[Yob]

but we do have fancy things like stir plates now mate almost any yeast storage manner, slants, frozen (correctly) shit even slurry under beer will contain yeast that can be stepped up @ 12 months.

All I am saying is that that method, while it may work (and clearly does from your observation), isn't necessarily the best way to go these days.. not saying it's wrong, just there are other ways to achieve healthy/viable/vital stored yeast.

If you are storing in 1020 wort, do you need to release the cap every so often? I assume there would be pressure build up?

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

The reason for releasing the pressure every so often is so you dont end up with a fire extinguisher. Something that a fellow brewer found out the somewhat messy way....its more a practical thing.

Was rather funny when he told me he had yeast dripping from the ceiling and a completly empty pet bottle.

 

[TSMill]

I went and found a 24 page thread on this topic on homebrewtalk (actually, debating storage under beer vs. water, not unfermented wort).

If you make it to Page 21, there's a very good summary by a mircobiologist (Warthaug).

The main arguments for storing under beer are the presence of alcohol (and perhaps residual hop material) and the pH of beer inhibits bacterial activity, and the introduction of additional steps to the process which may introduce contamination risks. Also, obviously it is slightly easier than rinsing.

On the flip side, there are many microbiological species that can feed on fermentation products, after the yeast has become (relatively) dormant. In contrast, storage under water removes the protection of ethanol/pH, but also eliminates the food source of these potential contaminants. It is noted that ethanol/metabolic byproducts in any concentration will have a negative impact on yeast health.

In summary, the author concludes:

In other words, with water vs. fermented wort you're dealing with 6 of one and a half dozen of the other - wort protects against some infections while supporting the growth of others; water provides no protection, but also doesn't support growth. IMO water has a slight edge in that you also rid the culture of metabolic end-products (ethanol, esters, etc) that can stress yeast. But that advantage comes with a bit of risk - any time you open your stored yeast you risk contamination from organisms in the air and in/on any equipment and materials you are using.

In my opinion, the risk of contamination is somewhat minimised if you are making starters every time (as opposed to a re-pitch) and tasting for possible infections after each step.

Again, nothing about storage in un-fermented wort, but the risk of contaminant growth would have to be greater than that for storage under fermented beer.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

Here is something from the past using a different method of re-using yeast.

http://web.archive.org/web/20041210115046/http://www.grumpys.com.au/read.php3?id=26792

 

[TSMill]

Yep, it will work, but its also going to reduce every one of my batches by 1.5-2L, plus I can easily keep 30 off vials of yeast samples in my fridge, not sure 5 would want to keep the same quantity of samples in anything much larger. This approach still has the issue that you are storing wort that is only partly fermented, and will be storing the yeast in contact with alcohol.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

Yep, it will work, but its also going to reduce every one of my batches by 1.5-2L,

No it wont. You add 2L then draw out 2L.

 

[Scooby Tha Newbie]

Wow Ducatiboy is that a time machine link? Very kool mate i saved it :unsure:

 

[TSMill]

Ah ok, I assumed that you decanted the liquid off the bulk of the yeast before adding, I wouldn't be keen for 10% or so of my ferment volume to be partially fermented wort that has sat in the fridge for months.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

Its more a short term method used to give good viable yeast for consecutive brews without having to muck around making starters for each brew as the 2lt you draw out is essentially a starter.

And it will sit in the fridge for months. Just pull it out, warm it up and pitch the lot. Never had any issues.

Maybe you could try it.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

Wow Ducatiboy is that a time machine link? Very kool mate i saved it :unsure:

Lots of great info on that site in its day. We where all experimenting with a lot less than we have now, and still making fantastic beers equall to any brewed today.

 

[TSMill]

Pretty rare that I would brew sequentially with the same yeast, let alone the same grain bill/hop schedule. 10% or so is going to impact taste for mine, so think I'm gonna give it a miss.

 

[Yob]

For my ha' penny.. I think storing a known amount of rinsed, clean (dated) healthy / vital yeast, cannot be beaten, you can work out the pitch rate for your next brew, step it and away yo go. I will give that link a read, got it pinned but there are some pretty good methods (and even that science stuff) employed these days for good result.

for example, you know that old story, this many yeast cells for a beer with a volume of (X) and a gravity of (Y) = (Z) size starter to achieve (A Cells) or some such..

for me, it's (X) ml collected yeast, x starter size = up to 1060 (1lt) or above 1060.. (2lt) or as I like to call it... a thumb.... but If Ive rinsed it properly, Ive selected the right yeast to begin with and have stored and or split enough for starters... If Ive got my shit together I may even have some of the target wort!! Other methods (like splitting/rinsing etc) can keep that sweet spot generation (for want of a better term) going and going and going.

That said, the Fransiscan Well Brewery in Ireland has used the method that Stu talks about in his link, to keep a Wheat Yeast going (when I was there a few years ago) 128 batches... slightly more than 2lt, but same principal so I completely agree that the method works, seen it, tasted the beer... but thats the thing, it was the same beer and he was the first to admit that there would have been flavor drift over the time, not in a bad way, but drift all the same.

:icon_cheers:

Ed: splings

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

The great thing is that yeast is very robust, and it takes a fair bit of abuse to kill it.

Doesnt really matter if you spend all day with stir plates, boiled water, yeast calc charts....or just grab some slurry from your last ferment.

At the end of the day it makes beer, regardless of how anal you want to be, or how lax you want to be, excepting infections of course

 

[Yob]

well said

 

[TSMill]

The great thing is that yeast is very robust, and it takes a fair bit of abuse to kill it.
Doesnt really matter if you spend all day with stir plates, boiled water, yeast calc charts....or just grab some slurry from your last ferment.
At the end of the day it makes beer, regardless of how anal you want to be, or how lax you want to be, excepting infections of course

All I saw was "blah blah blah, anal infections, blah....."

But you are correct that yeast is tolerant, some may even advocate not rehydrating

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

I give up