Storing "no Chill" Cubes

[deathweed]

Hello all,

I am an American brewer that has been reading about no chill brewing and storing in cubes. I am an active member on another forum homebrewtalk.com, and have started a thread there to try and convince brewers over here that the principals of no chill brewing and storage are sound. If anyone wants to check out the thread and post comments, the link is:

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/exploring-...brewing-117111/

And yes, I admit, I did steal the information from your wiki to appease some of the fears and questions I was receiving. Sorry about that....

I do have one question for you who store their worts for extended periods of time; do you typically keep the cubes at room temperature or refrigerate in some way? I would imagine that there would be no problems with room temperature storage if hot packed properly and the cube is adequately sealed, but some conformation from someone with experience is always welcome.

Happy brewing, and thank you for all the information on a new technique! :icon_chickcheers:

 

[porky]

Welcome to the board.

I no chill, and keep cubes for a few weeks sometimes. I live in a place where it is 85-90 most every day in summer and have had no problems at all. I hear of guys keeping them much longer than that as well. And stored at room temp in the shed. Quite hot.

What State do you live in? I am from NYC but live in sunny Queensland.

Cheers,
Bud

 

[Cortez The Killer]

Room temp here

Cheers

 

[KHB]

Fridge here but now i have no spare room so they will be inside in a cool spot.

Cheers

 

[Thirsty Boy]

room temp for short term (day or two) - fridge for longer term if I have the space.

Oxygen transfer through HDPE is lower at lower temps and so will be the rate of any oxidation reactions. LME in tins ages and oxidises over time, I cant see why wort in a cube would do otherwise, so if I am able, I put it in the fridge to reduce the chances of any staling happening at all. Also keeps it out of the light deleting the possibility of lightstrike etc

Light, oxygen and heat are all bad for beer - I work on the assumption (rightly or wrongly) that they will in greater or lesser degree, also be bad for wort. The fridge allows me to minimise all three.

Still I dont care so much that I would worry excessively about leaving a cube around for a few weeks if there was no room in the fridge

 

[RetsamHsam]

I store mine in the garage, on the concrete floor out of direct sun light.

I have stored cubes this way for approx 3-4 months prior to fermentation without any issues.

 

[crundle]

Store mine on the floor of the garage in a tucked away corner, away from light with a cover over them. Have only ever stored for a few weeks, but trust others who report storing for up to a year with no apparent ill effects. There must be some oxidation etc that occurs, but reducing temperature and light exposure are probably the best things you can do to keep the wort at its freshest.

I think of cubing as giving me more flexibility to ferment when I want, as my fermenting fridge will only hold one fermenter, so I can brew as much as I like, store it and then ferment to schedule. The bonus is that it reduces water use in cooling the wort, a good thing in most of Australia at the moment (and from what I hear on US forums, as many States have water restrictions also).

It works, and it works well. You will be able to brew when you want, and ferment when you want, with no ill effect on your beers.

Crundle

 

[BennyBrewster]

Hey deathweed,

Had a quick read over your thread and I see suggestions of using dry ice and CO2 purging, I would suggest that you highlight if you haven't already the fact that we (Aussies) simply squeeze the cubes to expel excess air before sealing the lid. Also I see no mention of Pasteurization to back up your argument of heat over time killing any nasties that make it into the cube.

Benny

 

[Sammus]

Some places actually sell no-chilled wort in cubes. I've had this before sitting at room temp for 18months+ before fermenting and results were spectacular, back then it was probably one of the best beers I'd brewed (or didn't brew, as the case may be).

 

[sumo]

I now store my cubes in my fermentation chamber (which a chest freezer). I believe (and I'm no scientist) that CO2 is heavier than 02, thus the CO2 created from fermentation will drop to the bottom of the chest freezer. I also purge the CO2 bottle into the freezer a little now and again, thus would expect that the CO2 will prevent O2 getting at the cubes.... not sure if it is scientifically sound.

I have managed to keep my cubes for up to three months in and out of the freezer without any noticeable issues.

 

[raven19]

Like many others I leave on the concrete floor in the shed or at room temperature inside the house with no issues.

 

[Josh]

I store them at room temp here as well.

 

[crundle]

Reading the US thread is reminiscent of reading the threads on no chilling in this forum in the past. It has started to go from the incredulous responses of doom and gloom to more reasoned arguments against the procedure, such as DMS and oxygenation, and is now starting on the extra bittering effects that theory says should occur (not wishing to inflame discussion here).

Soon hopefully, someone over there will enter a no chilled brew in a competition, win said competition, and then the process may become more mainstream over there too.

I am thankful to the first crazy people who gave it a try, as it is just so easy to do, and gives the brewer complete freedom over when to ferment, as distinct from a combined brewing/fermenting schedule.

Nice to see the wiki article cited being credited to AHB also, credit where it is due!

ps - agree that some discussion about the pasteurisation process is in order in the US thread, and maybe some links to our forum discussions on the effects/supposed effects on bittering of no chill cubing.

cheers,

Crundle

 

[deathweed]

Thank you so much everyone for your replies, and to those that made replies on my other thread! Your help in this is greatly appreciated, and hopefully with some success a new generation of "no chiller's" can be ushered in.

What State do you live in? I am from NYC but live in sunny Queensland.

I hail from Texas, College Station and Texas A&M to be specific. I am finishing up my Doctor of Veterinary Medicine and will be starting my clinical rotations in the next week, which explains my time crunches and the main reason I am exploring this method. I love brewing, and I love having my beer on tap at all times, but pretty soon I am not going to be able to have a brew day every 2 weeks anymore...

I think of cubing as giving me more flexibility to ferment when I want, as my fermenting fridge will only hold one fermenter, so I can brew as much as I like, store it and then ferment to schedule. The bonus is that it reduces water use in cooling the wort, a good thing in most of Australia at the moment (and from what I hear on US forums, as many States have water restrictions also).

This is the exact reason I am exploring this. Since our ambient temps between March and November are between 85-105F, I have to use my fermentation cabinet to control fermentation temperatures (as I am sure many of you understand.) With only room for 2 fermenters in my cabinet, and only being able to brew every couple of months, this is going to put a serious crimp in my pipeline unless this works out so I can continue fermenting beers from large brew days when I have time.

Had a quick read over your thread and I see suggestions of using dry ice and CO2 purging, I would suggest that you highlight if you haven't already the fact that we (Aussies) simply squeeze the cubes to expel excess air before sealing the lid. Also I see no mention of Pasteurization to back up your argument of heat over time killing any nasties that make it into the cube.

Thanks, I will try to emphasize this more in my other thread. I believe I tried to imply pasteurization without actually mentioning it by name, and I do not believe it got through to the readers. Honestly my main concern has been with botulism, especially since we are dealing with a plant based product and the spores are not inactivated by pasteurization processes. I am still scouring the literature trying to find a study that closely resembles what we are trying to do, but I have only found snippets about C. botulinum spores being inactivated in low-pressure boils with low pH's (like wort). If anyone knows of any papers, I would be more than happy for the assistance with the search.

Soon hopefully, someone over there will enter a no chilled brew in a competition, win said competition, and then the process may become more mainstream over there too...

ps - agree that some discussion about the pasteurisation process is in order in the US thread, and maybe some links to our forum discussions on the effects/supposed effects on bittering of no chill cubing.

I believe one of our members has offered to do a no chill and a traditionally chilled batch of the same recipe, and send them to a BJCP judge for tasting and comparison. I am sure everyone here will be interested in the results if this plan comes to fruition.

As far as the other discussions here, if you have links to some of the more beneficial ones, I would be glad to reference them in my US thread, so the sharing of information beyond international borders can continue!

Thank you again everyone for all your help and replies! Happy brewing!

 

[RetsamHsam]

This looks like one of the original threads on no-chill.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

I think you can take heart with the Botulism argument - in the fact that at high temperatures the HDPE is quite permeable to oxygen. One of the reasons to squeeze out the air.. its getting quite enough oxygen contact through the material of the cube, without extra from the headspace. All you need to do is limit it a bit when the wort is hot enough for your traditional Hot Side Aeration to occur - As the wort cools down enough to actually absorb 02, the hdpe is still so permeable to the gas that the wort is far far from anerobic enough to be an issue.

I don't have figures to back this up (I am in the research phase of obtaining them)... but lets put it this way. Would you have a botulism concern if you put your hot wort into an open Carboy filled to the top (heated so it didn't shatter) closed with a bit of tinfoil?? Not sealed, just loose like a starter. I'm guessing no-body would have issue with that.

But - how much oxygen is actually making it through the couple of square inches of surface wort? None through the sides because glass is not permeable. Transfer rates of gas through liquid interfaces are pretty low without agitation. But I still doubt anyone would worry. Whether they should or not is a different question.

Now compare that to a sealed cube - sure, there is no actual liquid to air interface... but you have better than a square meter of surface area, which is Atransmitting oxygen at 58cc per square meter per 24hrs per mm of thickness at 25C - At 35C this rises to 111cc. Who knows at higher temps. After a couple of days at 25C - a standard cube might as well be in an open bucket from an oxygen levels perspective. Its saturated. And our cube has had a flying head start at higher temperatures while it cools down.

If anyone has better transfer rate figures, or can tell me what the transfer rate of oxygen across an undisturbed liquid/gas interface might be. That would be great. I am also hunting the levels of oxygen needed to inhibit Botulism spores.

I strongly suspect though I don't know for sure - that your sealed cube is actually as safe or safer than an open bucket made out of glass or stainless would be.

 

[MCT]

I can't see that much oxygen making it in a sealed HDPE cube. I've stored cubes for over six months and when I open them the vacuum is still present, I can hear it sucking air in. That's gotta mean it's airtight...

 

[Tony]

If they suck in air they will get infected. You know there infected cause it starts to froth and swell. I only ever had this happen with a cube that leaked. We had visitors with kids young enough to not know but old enough to get the lid off. I noticed it had air in it the day after they had been and soon after it went bad.

I have stored dozens of cubed for long periods. The longest i went was about 14 months. Fermented te beer (an octoberfest) and it was fantastic!

I even won a state championship and a first place in style at the Aussie National Champs with an english Old ale that was 2 years old after being no chilled in a cube for a couple months with about 10% airspace left in the cube. So there are no long term efects from this also.

The one and only down fall i find from No chill is lack of hop aroma. Flavour is fine, bitterness sometimes a bit higher if you get all the hops in the cube but that can be easily avoided if your half worth your weight in beer.

I made identical beers recently, American Rye's and the chilled beer had a better hop aroma. The no chilled beer was maltier.

They were both made in different systems as well so i wouldnt lay this down as a conclusive point but i do find over all that no chilled beers lack hop aroma compared to what i get from a crach chilled beer.

Maybe thats why the Americans just cant come at the idea?

I personly only no chill for convenience. I can brew when i have time, put it in a cube and it can sit there for months till i get around to sticking it on some yeast. I have had a Belgian pale sitting in a cube since Januarry and just droped it on some yeast 2 days ago. The wort smelt as good as the day it left the kettle.

If i plan to brew and book a day in with the minister of good fun and fair goes, i crash chill it.

just what i do but for me, both methods are great and work fine. I just blend them to suit my lifestyle and time constraints.

cheers

 

[Bribie G]

OK here's a blast from the past.

In the late 70s I ran a home brew shop in Queensland and the standard fare was Brigalow kits, Pride of Ringwood pellets and flowers, a big honey dispenser of Malt Extract and a similar dispenser of Glucose syrup on the counter, and shelves full of airlocks, finings etc. The good old days. Then in 79 a wonderful thing happened. Coopers of Adelaide decided to go into Home Brew and what they did was to package the actual brewery wort into cubes and ship it out. That's right, the genuine wort of Sparkling ale and Stout and you could brew it at home, from the 23 litre five gallon imperial cubes. And they were cube shaped, not jerries.

I brewed quite a few and they were spectacular. Later they replaced the cubes with a plastic bag in a box. Freight, obviously, killed that model so they went into 'normal' home brew tins from the early 80s.

Cubes are tried and tested for over thirty years, shipped for thousands of kilometres in all temperature conditions. Floats my boat.

 

[pdilley]

I guess with any new sounding idea, the existing group(s) of people are sheep and the bleat and bleat and bleat on about why they should stay in the same pasture.

Takes a bell weather sheep to lead the flock to newer pastures, after which most follow without thinking, just like sheep

Then everyone likes the new pasture and wonder how they got on without it.

Some psychologist probably already coined up the term group mentality and wrote about it.