Stone And Wood Ale Recipe

[Dan Pratt]

^ ^ i think you need to target a much lower starting gravity to achieve the abv for the beer at 4.4% that will bring the body back

To get the beer more crisp beer, you will need to work on the pH of the beer for mash and final beer.

 

[ABG]

^ ^ i think you need to target a much lower starting gravity to achieve the abv for the beer at 4.4% that will bring the body back

To get the beer more crisp beer, you will need to work on the pH of the beer for mash and final beer.

Cheers Dan. Yep, I'm guessing I'm hitting higher efficiencies than assumed by the recipe. Will dial the grain bill back accordingly.

My PH meter was on the fritz, but has been replaced. Brewfather says my PH should have been 5.3, but I'll check it carefully next time around.

 

[Brewman_]

I brewed this a few weeks ago and although it's very clean and drinkable, my brew is definitely not as good as a S&W PA. It's a bit on the thin side, not quite as hoppy and lacks the crispness of the original.

I hit an OG of 1.053 and an FG of 1.008, giving an approximate ABV of 5.9%. I pitched with US05 at 20°, dropped it within 8 hours to 18° for the next 3 days, then ramped up by a degree every day until it hit 22°.

Earlier in the thread @MHB said that having a high efficiency will hurt smaller beers, leaving them thin. Exactly what's happened with mine.

How can I make this a fuller bodied beer and how can I improve the crispness? Any help would be genuinely appreciated.

Hi AGB,
I am not sure of who you are, but I assume you got the recipe ingredients as a "recipe" from me?

Couple of questions.
Did you boil 90 minutes? This recipe definitely needs it with the Weyermann Premium Pils.
Looks like your efficiency was a bit higher than planned.

A coupe of your comments are raising more questions. The thinness of the beer I would expect to lead to a crisper beer, but you say it is not. Makes me wonder whether there is something else like diacetyl that's detracting from the crispness and mouthfeel of the beer.

Anything above starting gravity 1050 I would use two yeasts and I always oxygenate the wort. Something to consider, or maybe you did this anyway?

To increase the body you could increase the mash temp by a degree or two.

Adjusting your efficiency number up, will decrease the grist and that's not going to increase the body of the beer. You should adjust your efficiency number to bring the SG back into line with planned.

On the aroma, you could increase the amount of dry hops and probably the 10 minute addition as well. The additions on the recipe are what I considered close to the commercial example, but I know people often increase those two additions.

Feel free to call me you'd like to discuss more.

Cheers Steve

 

[ABG]

Hi AGB,
I am not sure of who you are, but I assume you got the recipe ingredients as a "recipe" from me? Yep, I saw it posted further up in this thread. I mentioned I was going to use it a few weeks ago.

Couple of questions.
Did you boil 90 minutes? This recipe definitely needs it with the Weyermann Premium Pils. Yep, I always do with Weyerman Pils
Looks like your efficiency was a bit higher than planned. Yep, I hit mash efficiency of 88% and a brewhouse efficiency of 73.7%

A coupe of your comments are raising more questions. The thinness of the beer I would expect to lead to a crisper beer, but you say it is not. Makes me wonder whether there is something else like diacetyl that's detracting from the crispness and mouthfeel of the beer. There's no super obvious diacetyl taste. I wonder whether my pH was off as my pH meter was out of action.

Anything above starting gravity 1050 I would use two yeasts and I always oxygenate the wort. Something to consider, or maybe you did this anyway? I used 2 packets of US05. I don't have an oxygen kit - maybe further down the line...

To increase the body you could increase the mash temp by a degree or two. I was thinking that may be the way to go - thanks.

Adjusting your efficiency number up, will decrease the grist and that's not going to increase the body of the beer. You should adjust your efficiency number to bring the SG back into line with planned. Yep, I've pulled the numbers back a bit and will re-brew

On the aroma, you could increase the amount of dry hops and probably the 10 minute addition as well. The additions on the recipe are what I considered close to the commercial example, but I know people often increase those two additions. Will do

Feel free to call me you'd like to discuss more. Thanks for your help Steve. I'll give you a holler next time I'm up in Newcastle to say g'day and pick up a few odds'n'ends.

Cheers Steve

Cheers, Andrew

 

[Northside Novice]

All the answers are in this post from years ago, (06)
why reinvent the wheel?

Stone and wood draught ale is and rightfully so is a homebrewers staple brew, not unlike two minute noodles!

 

[ABG]

All the answers are in this post from years ago, (06)
why reinvent the wheel?

Stone and wood draught ale is and rightfully so is a homebrewers staple brew, not unlike two minute noodles!

I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel. I read the thread in its entirety. On page 9 @Brewman_ posted a recipe. @MHB who has provided a great deal of advice to me and others here said the recipe was "awesome - better than S&W" so I thought I'd give it a crack. His is an opinion I respect.

My attempt didn't turn out as good as a S&W, not because of any recipe shortcomings, but because of my shortcomings. I'm new to AG brewing, so I asked for some help.

I apologise that I'm not capable of brewing the equivalent of 2 minute noodles.

 

[Daniel Walker]

Brewman, thanks for sharing your recipe. I brewed it about a month ago and it is a very nice beer. You mentioned wey premium pils needs a 90 min boil, how come? (I am not questioning your advice just interested in the process)

 

[citizensnips]

Brewman, thanks for sharing your recipe. I brewed it about a month ago and it is a very nice beer. You mentioned wey premium pils needs a 90 min boil, how come? (I am not questioning your advice just interested in the process)

Likely due to avoid any Dimethyl Sulfide or DMS in the finished beer.

Modern malts on the whole however contain very little DMS precursor these days. I've done plenty of 40 minute boils and have never run into issues with DMS. This however is just my opinion, plenty of others still believe otherwise.

 

[Brewman_]

Likely due to avoid any Dimethyl Sulfide or DMS in the finished beer.

Modern malts on the whole however contain very little DMS precursor these days. I've done plenty of 40 minute boils and have never run into issues with DMS. This however is just my opinion, plenty of others still believe otherwise.

Pretty much spot on. So let me explain how that came about.

When I made the recipe with Barrett Burston Ale Malt there was no DMS at a 60 minute boil. There were some things I didn't like about the original recipe however. But they are personal taste kind of things. The beer was essentially flawless, but not to my taste.

The original recipe is there still unchanged if you want to look at that. It's awesome.

I decided to make some tweaks to the recipe and that's where the changes in base malt came from. And a little change in the hop profile.
When I started using the Weyermann premium pilsner in the recipe at a 60 minute boil I was getting some off flavours and aromas that I put down to DMS. While I was happy with everything else about the beer I was not happy with the finished flavour and aroma.

So I tried a 90 min boil to remove the off flavours. Worked a treat.

But that could vary depending on your boil off rates and your system.

Cheers Steve

 

[Brewman_]

Likely due to avoid any Dimethyl Sulfide or DMS in the finished beer.

Modern malts on the whole however contain very little DMS precursor these days. I've done plenty of 40 minute boils and have never run into issues with DMS. This however is just my opinion, plenty of others still believe otherwise.

Just interested what base malts that you use? Because they are not all the same

 

[Outback]

I have been led to believe Pilsner malts are somewhat less modified than most other base malts, thus requiring the 90 min boil to drive off DMS precursors.
Is this correct, or do I have the wrong end of a one ended stick?

 

[Daniel Walker]

Thanks for the replies

 

[sulgar]

I have been led to believe Pilsner malts are somewhat less modified than most other base malts, thus requiring the 90 min boil to drive off DMS precursors.
Is this correct, or do I have the wrong end of a one ended stick?

I had the same experience here, brewing all grain with a Czech Pils malt and 60 min boil. Result was tons of DMS, almost undrinkable. Multiple D-rests did nothing to change the flavor. 90 min boil on the next brew solved that.

On a side note, with German LME, have not had that issue with 60 min boils.

 

[MHB]

I brewed this a few weeks ago and although it's very clean and drinkable, my brew is definitely not as good as a S&W PA. It's a bit on the thin side, not quite as hoppy and lacks the crispness of the original.

I hit an OG of 1.053 and an FG of 1.008, giving an approximate ABV of 5.9%. I pitched with US05 at 20°, dropped it within 8 hours to 18° for the next 3 days, then ramped up by a degree every day until it hit 22°.

Earlier in the thread @MHB said that having a high efficiency will hurt smaller beers, leaving them thin. Exactly what's happened with mine.

How can I make this a fuller bodied beer and how can I improve the crispness? Any help would be genuinely appreciated.

A couple of things that need looking at -
First your apparent attenuation, (53-8/53=85%), that's very high for US-05 around 75-78% is pretty common for US-05, that alone would make the beer pretty thin.
The main cause are, infection with a much more aggressive yeast (leave that one with you) and Mash Temperature.
I'd be taking a long hard look at how you measure your mash temperature, I suspect what you are doing isn't working quite right.

I think my point about high efficiencies may have been a little unclear and caused some misunderstanding. High efficiency isn't bad - until it reaches the point where you start over-extracting the grain and getting undesirable flavours (Tannin astringency etc). If that starts happening its time to wind back your sparge.

Have to say I'm surprised that a beer with nearly 20% unmalted adjunct would attenuate 85%, are we talking about the Brewman recipe as above, or is it some sort of personalised version?
Your fermentation temperatures look needlessly complex, this is an Ale so a Diacetyl rest shouldn't be necessary (given a sensible yeast pitch rate and a 90 minute boil), I'm not sure how this will affect the beer but it looks like extra work for no apparent gain....

The Brewman recipe is excellent, I have tasted several version over the years as Steve tweaked it, and its at the point where I cant see any real changes being beneficial. Maybe just taking out the first hop addition of Magnum and using Galaxy (I hear the commercial is all Galaxy). Partly my fault, Steve started with one of my recipes and built on if from there, when I put it together Galaxy was hard to get so it was worth using something else where it didn't affect the flavour.
Mark

 

[ABG]

A couple of things that need looking at -
First your apparent attenuation, (53-8/53=85%), that's very high for US-05 around 75-78% is pretty common for US-05, that alone would make the beer pretty thin.
The main cause are, infection with a much more aggressive yeast (leave that one with you) and Mash Temperature.
I'd be taking a long hard look at how you measure your mash temperature, I suspect what you are doing isn't working quite right.

I think my point about high efficiencies may have been a little unclear and caused some misunderstanding. High efficiency isn't bad - until it reaches the point where you start over-extracting the grain and getting undesirable flavours (Tannin astringency etc). If that starts happening its time to wind back your sparge.

Have to say I'm surprised that a beer with nearly 20% unmalted adjunct would attenuate 85%, are we talking about the Brewman recipe as above, or is it some sort of personalised version?
Your fermentation temperatures look needlessly complex, this is an Ale so a Diacetyl rest shouldn't be necessary (given a sensible yeast pitch rate and a 90 minute boil), I'm not sure how this will affect the beer but it looks like extra work for no apparent gain....

The Brewman recipe is excellent, I have tasted several version over the years as Steve tweaked it, and its at the point where I cant see any real changes being beneficial. Maybe just taking out the first hop addition of Magnum and using Galaxy (I hear the commercial is all Galaxy). Partly my fault, Steve started with one of my recipes and built on if from there, when I put it together Galaxy was hard to get so it was worth using something else where it didn't affect the flavour.
Mark

Thanks for the clarification and suggestions Mark.

I used Brewman's recipe exactly, but ended up a bit too high on OG. I put it down to having a higher efficiency than Steve's recipe is assuming, but could be completely wrong.

Re temperature, I have the probe in the R3 (down at the bottom) and a calibrated (in an ice slurry) probe I insert at the top of the grain bed. At the start there is normally a 5 degree variation in temperature (the bottom being hotter of course) but after 10 minutes of running the pump, the temperaratures align pretty much spot on. I normally throw the grain into water that is about 4 degrees hotter than the mash in temp I'm looking for. The pre mash water temp is consistent from top to bottom when I switch the pump on. I leave the small element on only when I mash and generally set the temp a few degrees higher on the R3 than I want to mash at (I'm assuming that the majority of the mash will be a few degrees cooler for the first few minutes) and drop it down after about 5-10 minutes to the mark I'm looking for. Any feedback on my method is welcome.

I brewed a second batch of this a couple of weeks after my first crack at it and tweaked the grain bill down a bit to allow for higher efficiencies. I hit an OG of 1.047 and a FG of 1.005 with the second batch and it's much better than my first. The first had a dryness on the front of the tongue, yet somehow lacked the crispness I get with the S&W Pacific Ale. My second batch doesn't have the issue with dryness, but is just a smidge off being as crisp as the S&W. It's only had 10 days to condition in the keg and I normally find my beers improve after a few weeks. It's also worth noting I brewed both batches without a pH meter. I will brew it again at some point now my replacement meter has arrived. The other difference was I threw in 2 packs of US05 on the first batch because the OG was a bit on the high side for one pack in my experience. Maybe I overpitched a bit?

The fermentation schedule is one I've used for years with ales and it's always worked a treat. I take your point it may be a bit over the top and to some extent unnecessary, but I go down to my garage pretty much every day regardless, so it's no chore. I've followed the motto of "if it aint broke, don't fix it". It works, so I keep following the same old routine.

 

[MHB]

I'm sure you understand what your setup is doing, without seeing it I'm not all that clear on exactly how it works.
But for about the 100th time, do you have a decent lab thermometer that you can use as a reference?
Spend around $20 and get one if you haven't, stick it in and measure the mash temperature then yo know what is actually going on - anything else is a guess!
Note that the second batch referenced had an OG of 1.047 and a FG of 1.005 so you apparent attenuation was over 89%.
Same thoughts as the first brew, something isn't working right and needs fixing - it isn't the recipe.

If you were using BrewBuilder to order your malt, do a brew, record exactly what you got (volumes and gravity), set the volumes and adjust the efficiency until the OG matches what you got, go into the settings and record the new values.
Next order these will be the default settings and you should get exactly what you wanted. Worth looking at Steve's freight options to, I think you could get four 5kg recipes delivered for something like $17

Might be a good idea to familiarise yourself with the equation that we use to calculate strike water temperature, if you know your mass of malt and volume of liquor get the strike temperature right and you will hit your target every time.

On the amount of yeast, not knowing your batch size makes having an opinion difficult. For commercial brewing Safe recommends 50-80g/hL (100L) so if you had 25L in the fermenter that's 12.5-20g. Unfortunately 1 packet is under the low end and two is over the high end. Note that the recommendation is for a well aerated (10ppm O2) wort. Using 1 packet with O2 would really be the best option. Yes it makes a big difference to the finished flavour.
Yeast in a well aerated wort reproduces, while its doing that it's "eating" a bunch of stuff in the wort like lipids, sterols, fatty acids, proteins and peptides. One of the big differences between home made and commercial brews has for a long time been that Clean, Crisp part of the flavour, I think a lot of this comes from better yeast management and in no small part, wort aeration.
Mark

 

[garage_life]

I've made this with my pretty basic BIAB keg kettle setup, as per recipe sans Pac jade for bittering IBU and moved to 30min(?) and a bit of Rikawa in the dry hop.
Diluted accidentally due to my own misinterpretation but fermented out around high 70s eff. ended up around 4%abv, chilled, gravity fed to fermenter, shake and bake, immediate pitch.
S05 1 pack rehydrated in DME wort for 6 hrs, cold crashed 3 days 2 dungarees science, kegged pretty green. But it was very clean and "crisp", very similar to the original, malt and the galaxy apart from a bit more mouth feel and obviously a bit different hop profile, apparently 25ibu, seems right, I feel an improvement, definitely on brand, all reports from tastera are improved over the OG s&W.
That efficiency seems too high IMHO.
I'm using 3 different thermometers that I've tested and are good enough for the girls I go out with. Something's amiss.

 

[Flavourybitterness]

Hey crew,

Am on day 8 of fermentation and was about to put in some dry hops. I tasted it before putting in the hops and boy did it taste weird.

It’s a strong off flavour of some sort. I wish I had the experience to describe it or say what it was. My partner says it smells like car. I disagree but more noses are better than one.

I decided to withhold putting the hops out. But left the beer in the fermenter.

Fermentation was at 18 degrees and just turned it up to 20.

Any ideas?
Thanks in advance

 

[Wanderdog]

Hi guys,

just noticed this thread. I love this beer and I have been trying to get the S&W draught right for a while now. I had a chat to the brewers at the food and wine show last year and I seem to remember (in my drunken haze) that they said the malt split was 60/40 pale/wheat. They wouldn't specify the hops additions except to say it was a "shitload" of galaxy flowers , with multiple additions.

Anyway, this is my 3rd iteration and is very close.....
The bitterness is higher than the 21 IBUs indicate, I suspect the final aroma addition added a fair bit.

Type: All Grain
Batch Size: 23.00 L
Brewer: Snow
Boil Time: 60 min Equipment: Snow's Equipment
Brewhouse Efficiency: 73.00

Ingredients

Amount Item Type % or IBU
2.80 kg Pale Malt (Barrett Burston) (2.0 SRM) Grain 60.87 %
1.80 kg Wheat Malt, Malt Craft (Joe White) (1.8 SRM) Grain 39.13 %
10.00 gm Galaxy flowers [14.90 %] (60 min) (Mash Hop) Hops 3.5 IBU
5.00 gm Galaxy flowers [14.90 %] (60 min) (First Wort Hop) Hops 9.6 IBU
10.00 gm Galaxy flowers [14.90 %] (20 min) Hops 5.9 IBU
12.00 gm Galaxy flowers [14.90 %] (5 min) Hops 2.9 IBU
35.00 gm Galaxy flowers [14.90 %] (0 min) (Aroma Hop-Steep) Hops -
40.00 gm Galaxy flowers [14.90 %] (Dry Hop 10 days) Hops -
1.00 items Sodium Metabisulphite (Mash 60.0 min) Misc
1.00 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 10.0 min) Misc
1.00 tsp Yeast Nutrient (Boil 10.0 min) Misc
1 Pkgs American Ale (DCL Yeast #US-05 ) Yeast-Ale

Beer Profile

Measured Original Gravity: 1.046 SG
Measured Final Gravity: 1.012 SG
Actual Alcohol by Vol: 4.43 %
Bitterness: 21.8 IBU Calories: 430 cal/l
Est Color: 3.3 SRM Color: Color


Mash Profile

My Mash Step Time Name Description Step Temp
60 min Step 66.0 C
10 min Mash Out 76.0 C
Batch sparge 78C


Cheers - Snow.

Very helpful thanks

 

[Flavourybitterness]

Had another go at this,
The flavour was there- however milder. I think it was the yeast flavour. Once I cold crashed it was gone. Tasting amazing.