Steeping Or Mashing ?

[mika]

I'm following (roughly) this recipe for a Porter which mentions steeping the grains (choc malt, roasted barley and some crystal malt).
Now I've done converter kits before, but it was just a matter of throwing it in the pot and away I went.
If I'm going to steep these grains, do I first need to crack them ? or is that then mashing them ?
If so, my crystal malt is already crushed, can I get away with that or should I go buy some crystal malt that ain't crushed ?

Also, if I'm steeping them I guessing that's boiling water for the time the recipe says (20-30min) it doesn't give a temp.

This all seemed so easy... then I started thinking about it :blink:

Your help greatly appreciated, coz my brain's starting to hurt.

 

[dreamboat]

Yes, you definately need to crack the grains.
The practice of steeping vs mashing (in my mind anyway) is pretty much the same, and only differs due to the grains which you are using. In a mash, the grains used have enzymes which work to release the sugars from within the mash. In steeping, there are no enzymes to worry about, and all you are looking to do is extract the sugars directly (in the case of crystal), or extract some flavour and colour compounds in the case of the darker grains (whose enzymes have been killed off by the roastinf process).
I would avoid the use of boiling water as it will lead to tannin extraction, so would advise to carry the steep out at approximately mashing temperatures (between 60 and 70c say)
IF you are going all the way of doing that, why not throw in a kilo of pale or pils malt and run it as a proper minimash? Not much extra work required, and you will certainly get a better beer!


dreambaot

 

[BeerMat]

I agree with dreamboat; you definitely need to crack the grains first otherwise you wont extract anything from them.

Steeping just means soaking in hot water. When you make a cup of tea you are steeping the tea leaves to extract the flavour. In mashing, there are chemical reactions happening where starch in the grains is converted into sugars. The temperature and the amount of water used is critical in mashing but is not too important for steeping.

I steep at around 75 degrees cooler is fine (mashing temps as per dreamboats reply) but no hotter. Use, say, 2 liters of water.

After you have steeped the grains for 30 minutes, remove them from the liquid then boil the liquid for several minutes to kill any bacteria. Then use this hot liquid to dissolve the kit. This is why I use 2 liters of water so I have enough liquid to dissolve the kit ingredients.

 

[Keifer]

Beer Mat,
After steeping for 30 mins, do you need to do this a second time with fresh hot water? i need a better memory

 

[apd]

You might want to rinse the grains after you pull them out of the steeping water but you don't need to steep them again.

I've done a few full boil extracts recently where I steep the grains in the water while it's warming up to boiling point. I pull the grains out once it reaches 70*C or thereabouts.

Then bring to boil, add hops, etc.

 

[mika]

Hmmm... do I trust a Fantasy Brewer ?? :unsure:
Umm.. OK
Thanks for the advice dreamboat. You've got me intrigued now.
If I was to go Mini Mash (first time for everything), what do I do to follow the basic recipe

Quote from someone, my apologies... soo many posts on this site... so few active brain cells left in my head

***
version 1
Tooheys real ale kit 1.7kg
1kg ultra brew (500 light dme,250 maltodextrin, 250 dextrose)
100g roasted barley
50g chocolate malt
50g med crystal malt
10g fuggles hop pellets
saflager 34/70

Steep the grain for 20-30 min and strain off liquid. Bring to the boil and boil for 10 min with hops.

version 2
Morgans qld bitter kit 1.7kg
1kg light dme
500g wheat dme
250g roasted barley
100g med crystal malt
100g chocolate malt
15g tettnanger hop pellets
saflager s23

Steep the grain for 20-30 min and strain off liquid. Bring to the boil and boil for 10 min with hops.

****

I'm doing almost the same except I went a can of Morgans Dark Ale (Iron bark)

 

[Jazzafish]

version 1
Tooheys real ale kit 1.7kg
1kg ultra brew (500 light dme,250 maltodextrin, 250 dextrose)
100g roasted barley
50g chocolate malt
50g med crystal malt
10g fuggles hop pellets
saflager 34/70

With this version, steeping will be fine. I have steeped crystal, choc and raotsed grains before without problem.

I would follow the methods mentioned here, probally your best option (read the whole chapter for more theory): http://www.howtobrew.com/section2/chapter13-3.html

When I made batches like that, I used a stainless steel strainer to hold the grains in a 10L stock pot filled with a few litres of warm water. As the temperature rose I steeped the grains, removing them at 75*C, while the extraction and water in the pot rose to the boil. Let it boil for 45min to an hour (second half of footy), then at flame out added the hops, kit and ultra brew. Ice bathed and put into fermenter. Then I add enough water until I hit my target gravity. Made some respectable beer.

Another way I have done it is to use SWMBO's coffee plunger... Just put the grains in and added 75*C water. Let stand for an hour, slowly pushed down the plunger like a coffee and added it to the kit fermenter. The rest was done the normal way.

I wouldn't do any partial mashing... For the time and effort required you may as well go all grain. I did, it is pretty easy to do.

 

[BeerMat]

Beer Mat,
After steeping for 30 mins, do you need to do this a second time with fresh hot water? i need a better memory

[post="122077"][/post]​

I agree with apd - I often rinse the grains but wouldn't do a second steep. 2 liters of water is a lot for a few hundred grams of grain so even the rinse isn't 100% necessary.

 

[mika]

Thanks for all the great advice people, much appreciated. When I've finished the brew I'll let you know how it went.

Jazzafish - Don't have a coffee plunger. But the girl's birthday is coming up soon..... h34r:
Oh.. and a great link too. One day I'll get round to my first All Grain (still getting equipment together) and might try that recipe too.

 

[Jazzafish]

Glad to help.

 

[mika]

Alrighty then... the brews locked away in the fermenter, time for a disection of the method.
Basically followed Jazzafish's suggestion, with an added rinsing of the grain to get the last little bits of sugar out.

Turned my back for two seconds whilst boiling and of course, the brew tried to leap out of the pot :angry:

But all went well.
Final recipe ended up as;

Morgans Iron bark dark ale kit 1.7kg
1kg ultra brew (500 light dme,250 maltodextrin, 250 dextrose)
150g roasted barley
100g med crystal malt
100g chocolate malt
15g tettnanger hop pellets
saflager S-04

Don't know if those changes are going to stuff it, but oh well... tastes damn nice

It's a bit darker than I was originally hoping for, maybe should hve gone an amber ale. But the taste of the wort ain't that far off what I wanted so...

Only other thing is, the hydrometer reckons this brew has an OG of +1064 :blink:
Definitely going to be a winter warmer.

Thanks for everyone's help/suggestions as my first dark ale and only third extract it looks to be a good un.

 

[BeerMat]

1064? That's very high. How much water did you add?

150g of roasted barley is quite a lot for a porter. My last recipe had 80g and I thought that was a bit much (beer was quite dark; probably use 50g next time). It might be closer to a stout than a porter but it should taste good regardless.

BTW, the beers I've made using these dark grains take a while to smooth out. If your beer has an burnt, "ashy" taste at bottling time, don't worry - that taste will disappear after 6 to 8 weeks.

 

[mika]

BeerMat, it came out to 23 Litres. Think the high reading may have been some undissolved sugar in the ap. I wasn't expecting a reading that high, but then an OG wasn't posted for the original recipe so ?? :unsure:

Thanks for the tip on waiting for it. As it's cooled down I was kinda expecting it to take at least 6 wks in the bottle, if not longer.

 

[Trough Lolly]

Mika_Lika,
As I suspected, the brew might be a bit light on for hops...But that shouldn't necessarily detract from an otherwise nice robust porter. Here's Promash's take on your extract/steeped recipe:

Mika Lika's Porter

A ProMash Recipe Report
BJCP Style and Style Guidelines
-------------------------------
12-B Porter, Robust Porter
Min OG: 1.048 Max OG: 1.065
Min IBU: 25 Max IBU: 60
Min Clr: 57 Max Clr: 110 Color in EBC

Recipe Specifics
----------------
Batch Size (L): 23.00 Wort Size (L): 10.00
Total Extract (kg): 2.95
Anticipated OG: 1.041 Plato: 10.22
Anticipated EBC: 85.5
Anticipated IBU: 22.3
Wort Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Pre-Boil Amounts
----------------
Evaporation Rate: 10.00 Percent Per Hour
Pre-Boil Wort Size: 11.11 L
Pre-Boil Gravity: 1.085 SG 20.39 Plato

Formulas Used
-------------
Brewhouse Efficiency and Predicted Gravity based on Method #1, Potential Used.
Final Gravity Calculation Based on Points.
Hard Value of Sucrose applied. Value for recipe: 46.2100 ppppg
Yield Type used in Gravity Prediction: Fine Grind Dry Basis.

Color Formula Used: Morey
Hop IBU Formula Used: Rager
Additional Utilization Used For Plug Hops: 2 %
Additional Utilization Used For Pellet Hops: 10 %


Grain/Extract/Sugar
% Amount Name Origin Potential EBC
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
57.6 1.70 kg. Morgans Dark Ale kit Australia 1.037 171
16.9 0.50 kg. DME - Pale Australia 1.046 20
8.5 0.25 kg. Maltodextrin Australia 1.040 0
8.5 0.25 kg. Dextrose Australia 1.046 0
5.1 0.15 kg. Roasted Barley Great Britain 1.029 1523
3.4 0.10 kg. Chocolate Malt Great Britain 1.034 1258

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops
Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
15.00 g. Bitterness from kit Pellet 8.60 15.1 0 min.
15.00 g. Tettnanger Pellet 4.50 7.2 60 min.

Yeast
-----
DCL Yeast S-04 SafAle English Ale

Now, I made some guesses:
1. I assumed you did the boil in a stock pot,
2. You used Choc Malt and not pale Choc Malt - hence the high EBC levels,
3. You added the kit at flameout to preserve the bittering in the kit, which I accounted for in the hop schedule above, and
4. Your Tett was around 4.5% A/A...and you boiled it for the full hour.

Your SG is a bit high! Not sure about that one. I reckon 150g of roasted barley is fine - this is a ROBUST porter you know!
Anyway, congrats on a good job!!

Cheers,
TL

 

[BeerMat]

BeerMat, it came out to 23 Litres. Think the high reading may have been some undissolved sugar in the ap. I wasn't expecting a reading that high, but then an OG wasn't posted for the original recipe so ?? :unsure:

Thanks for the tip on waiting for it. As it's cooled down I was kinda expecting it to take at least 6 wks in the bottle, if not longer.

[post="122796"][/post]​

Trough Lolly's calculations of 1.041 sounds right. I've often gotten false readings when testing the OG of a kit beer because the wort hasn't mixed properly - ie. I've added the dissolved kit to the fermenter then added water. The wort at the bottom of the fermenter near the tap is more concentrated and gives a high reading when tested.

 

[mika]

Hi Trough Lolly. Your assumptions mostly correct. Did in a stockpot, steeped grains for ~20minutes in ~5L at as close to 75*C that I could manage (some fluctuation), then removed the grains and boiled for ~45minutes Rolling boil, and a couple of times it slipped. As I've got a cheap (read: thin) pot, I'm worried about the brew sticking to the bottom of the pot.
Added sugars, can of goo and hops all at flameout. I'm not a huge fan of bitter beers, so didn't bother boiling the hops with the rest of it.
Oh well, whats done is done...now wait and see

 

[mika]

Alright, first taste...not all together encouraging. The roasted malt appears to dominate at this stage, maybe that will fade ?? :unsure:

Has a nice flavour, even if being a little too roasted for my liking. Very smooth beer, thin persistent head, nice dark rich colour...but not the complexity of flavours that I was hoping for ? Hop flavour almost non existent, but then I was using Tea Bag Hops (Yes Ross, I know, the order's been placed )

Next time I'll probably knock back on the roasted malt, but I'm going to give this one a little while longer just to see what happens (bottled 14th May) besides which I have a long list of brews I want to do in between.
So many brews, so little cold weather