Starting Into Ag (think Its The Go)

[langdon19]

Hi all
Have been brewing in a Kit for 10 years now and wow, wish i had found these forums 10 years ago and got away from that kit "twangy" taste. I have always used the kits as it is so much cheaper than vb and better on the head i find. If AG will do away with that taste then i can't wait to give it a go.
I am in the unique situation of moving to a lifestyle property/hobby farm and would also like in the future (when i can brew well) to be able to offer small amounts to visitors. I estimate that my friends and i will knock over 100 cartons a year, so i need a system that will be able to make 100 cartons plus. So i am a bit unsure of what to start with,as starting with 15l stove top brews to upgrade to an urn, then to a bigger system seems a waste of time and money me. I would rather start out with something that can produce a good amount and become bigger.
So what would be the best set up to start off with.
A coffee urn, and look to get another in the future if it goes well?
big 100l pot and a gas burner?
Or do i need to start looking into a professional system straight up?
I will be back in perth if anyone is looking to tutor an AG brewer in 3 weeks. I will unfortunately have limited time in perth due to a move to the country.
Thanks

 

[kelbygreen]

well there is so many options! depends how much you want to spend and what you want the system to do. Also how often you will be able to brew. You can buy a braumeister 50lt version, not sure how much it punches out and think they around $3500. You could got 100lt pot and do doubles (50lts) with BIAB but would need a hoist and make a bag.

Then you got 3 tier gravity feed wich is a basic setup after BIAB and what I use (well need the tier now) But I got a 50lt HLT, 70lt Mashtun and 80lt kettle and could prob get 60lts out of in one brew day. Then you go onto 2 tier or single stand HERMS or RIMS, they are great and both recirculate and heat the wort while mashing so get clearer and more stable temp in the mash, They use pumps and valves and PID's for moving and heating water so alot of electrical and plumbing work involved.

 

[Cocko]

I see it like this;

100 cartons, of lets say 375ml bottles:

So, 100x 24 = 2400
2400x .375 = 900 Liters PA

so say you wanna brew once a fortnight, 900 / 26 = 34L

At that, I would suggest at least a double batch, maybe triple batch system - obviously the choices are many when it comes to systems, read up.

But if you are serious about going AG, do it right the first time rather than constantly upgrading etc IMO!

So, questions you may want to ask your self:

How often do I want to brew?
Will I be happy with big batches meaning, the a lot of the same beer?
How much can I afford to spend?
Can I build myself, which is half the fun btw, or am I a tool tard?
Should I get naked, except for my socks?

Anyway, 2c USD.

Cheers!

 

[Bribie G]

Depends as well how handy you are and how much you want to spend - i.e. building a system with big pots or cut down kegs, welding, wiring etc or whether you want to buy a "turn key" system. You have already been making beer for 10 years so already have fermenters, maybe a fridge or three, bottling or kegging gear whatever.

What you are really planning to do here is to slot in a "wort production" stage into whatever you are doing now - this "wort production" is then going to substitute for going to IGA and buying a tin.
So does the rest of your system need to be upgraded? For example, based on those quantities you mention, how would you ferment a double batch? Could you handle a 60L fermenter - for example - or would you need to go a bigger fermenting fridge (depending what climatic region you live in)?

One good method for doing double batches is to get 2 x 40L urns and do a double batch which ends up in one 60L fermenter, using BIAB. Entry cost around $550-600 including bags.
Another way is to get a larger pot and a burner, fit a tap, get a big bag and a hoist going. Probably cheaper than Urns but needs some handywork and the gas will cost a lot in the long run compared to electricity.
Then again you can go the three vessel route with a big esky, big gas boiler etc. and again you would need to be a bit handy fitting braids and false bottoms and fitting pipes, taps whatever.

You can even go $3500 and get a 50L BrauMeister and sit back and let it brew itself basically :icon_cheers:

 

[kelbygreen]

lol yeah get naked cocko haha (NOT!)

biggest thing that will prob determine it is the cost factor. If I had $4000 id prob go the braumeister just for the facts its a ready to go system and will do all the HERMS and RIMS will do. Its fully programmable so the temps and everything happen when you want them. You still have to add the water, grain, hops and lift the grain and stuff so its not like it will do everything for you but pretty much everything.

If you got about the same and a bit more room to store gear and want to build one then herms or rims is the go they both have there pros and cons but both make beer

 

[wobbly]

I have been the upgrade route from Kit and Kilo to all grain and I went the three tier, gravity, three vessel route. Urn for HLT, Esky for Mash and gas fired 36lt pot for kettle

This system "worked" and I made reasonably good beer (my view). but it wasn't without issues

About a month ago I bought a 20lt Braumeister and to date have made 5 brews and it couldn't be easier.

The $2300 I payed for the Braumeister is in my view money well spent due to the brew day being "sooo" much easier and future repeatablility will be dead simple.

To make 100 cartons plus a year you would need to brew every week with a 20lt system as compared to only every fortnight with a 50lt unit. And would that difference justify (for you) the additional $1000

The question you need to consider is how many fermenters will you need. Do you intend controlling fermentation temperatures and therefore how big a fridge do you have/need to source. Are you going to Bottle or keg. Bottling 50 lt in one go (140 stubbies) might be an issue

My 2c worth

Cheers

Wobbly

 

[Cocko]

The question you need to consider is how many fermenters will you need. Do you intend controlling fermentation temperatures and therefore how big a fridge do you have/need to source.

Wobbly

Kapow! Fermentation... good get!


Damn you here I was trying to be helpful...

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

Had to comment. Mate, best move you can make - going to AG. I was a 12 year (yes 12, 2 years more than you K&K days) Kit/Extract brewer. I've been AG for 2 years now (give or take). I have expressed the exact sentiment you have "I wish this forum was around 10 years ago". If it had been that way for me, I'd be AGing a long time ago.

Another member came over my joint and asked me if I'd ever go back to K&K "hell no" and I said to him, that if AHB existed, I'd have been AGing longer than I have been. I then gave him a half-glass (he had to drive) of my beer, and he went out and bought an urn and BIAB bag that weekend (I saw him there, whilst I was picking up my ingredients).

So yes, good move

You'll figure out how to AG, that's for sure. It isn't that hard and the theory cements itself in your head with repeat batches.

However, might I add, that if you are looking at doing those quantities, you might invest in a kegging system (even a cheapie). Reasons why are: 1. That sort of quantity of beer is going to be a pain to bottle and you'll give up; and 2. Nothing cooler than giving tap poured beer to your friends/family/bloke on the street/other AHB member - it really is that cool. And given it takes 1/100th of the effort of bottling, it almost feels like cheating.

I've got the most basic keg system - ask anthony from CB - 2 kegs, reg, gas bottle, NRV and squiggly hose taps. And it's fantastic for my consumption (which has increase since acquisition of keg system).

Good luck, let us all know how it goes.

Goomba

 

[langdon19]

Wow thanks for the replies
Looking to spends as little as possible but want the best results. If this does mean a $3500 braumeister in the future then i will go down that path once i have a bit more experiance.
So i guess an urn is looking pretty good, can then put in my 25l fermentor and can buy a 2nd urn if this works well.
Stupid question time, with an AG brew do you have to keep it cold once bottled???

 

[keifer33]

Wow thanks for the replies
Looking to spends as little as possible but want the best results. If this does mean a $3500 braumeister in the future then i will go down that path once i have a bit more experiance.
So i guess an urn is looking pretty good, can then put in my 25l fermentor and can buy a 2nd urn if this works well.
Stupid question time, with an AG brew do you have to keep it cold once bottled???

If your looking to spend the least possible a biab system will work well and knocking out nearly 800 lt a year thats a double batch just over every fortnight. So a 70lt pot, bag and a gas burner, some no chill cubes and your off and running. 44lts a fortnight is pretty decent amount.

As far as brewing AG differing from any other form once you've created the wort after the boil all the other processes are the same so you don't need to keep the bottles cold.

Might be worthwhile looking into a mill so you can buy your grain in bulk for when your on the farm and crush as you need it.

 

[flano]

I haven't read every post but if I am correct in what I have read.

I think you might be better off going the keg option...eventually
You sound dedicated enough to own a keg fridge.

I keg and it is another step up again from bottled.
I reckon the sugar added to the bottles give it a twangy taste when compared to the exact same beer from a keg.

Just my opinion.

good luck...have fun.

 

[Bribie G]

AG beers don't need to be kept cold after bottling. Actually one thing that will blow you away is that with most (but not all) styles, once it's clear and gassed up in the bottle - say 7 days - it's perfectly good to drink, whereas in my experience kit and kilo beers don't come good for about a month.
With kegged beers even better - I kegged and carbed a Yorkshire Best Bitter straight out of primary fermenter on Monday night, and on pouring half a glass this morning to check, it's nectar of the Gods already :icon_drunk:
The pale lager I kegged at the same time out of the lagering vessel is still a bit "green" but that's lagers for you - it should be spot on in a week as there's still a slight haze that needs to drop. :icon_cheers:

 

[QldKev]

100 cartons a year is about my house average.

First work out do you want to go BIAB or 3V.

My experience,
I've been BIAB for a while now(years), and I no-chill. I started with a 40L pot and a 3 ring burner. It worked great and I was making awesome beer. I soon found out, I needed to brew nearly every week to keep the beer supply up. Other hobbies, and working on the house etc soon put a stop to the idea of weekly brews. I got an 82L keg and used it as my brew pot, I was making 2 brews in one. Brewing every second week was a lot better, until Christmas, etc hit. Next attempt was running my double and a single batch next to each other, this allowed my to make a double of the house beer and a single of something I didn't want heaps of kegs worth. I did this for a while, but did find it a bit of stuffing around with 2 brews on the go when I was brewing by myself.

Meanwhile I had been collecting bits for my 3V setup(still in progress, no hurry with it). I purchased a 140L pot for my main 3V kettle. Talking with ekul on here, for a bit of fun we made a 100L batch in it. It was a lot easier than juggling 2 brews, and I managed to fill 4 x 25L no-chill cubes. Ekul was so impressed he purchased a 140L pot. Since then I have only ever done brews in the big pot. It means I only need to brew once a month and can keep a supply of AG on tap. If I ever need to catch up I could brew on both Sat and Sun (or a big day and do it all in one) and have 200L in cubes.

I mentioned no-chill up front. Thats because if you go to this size brewing you will need it, unless you want to ferment out all that beer at once. I run 10 cubes, which has about 3 to 4 different beers in them at any time. ie, you may fill 4 cubes at once, but you can ferment them in any order.

The downside of such a big brewing process is experiments. I do stil have my 40L and 82L pots on hand if I wish to use them, I just have never done it.

Also depending on your situation you may have more time for brewing, so such a big batch will not be what you are after. Like any hobby, read the different info and apply it to yourself and pick what you are happy with.

As a side note, the 3V I'm building is planned to only fill 3 cubes per run.

edit: Should also mention for that vol of beer I highly recommend to look at kegging the beer, it makes life soo much easier.



QldKev

 

[kymba]

agree with bfbiab to start with, but i am heavily biased. if you need to brew bigger batches you can use the 140L pot as your new mash tun

i'd also get friendly with small batch brewing to test out different recipes. making 90L of palestoutlagerdoppelweisbock is a fantastic feat - but you then have to drink it

 

[adryargument]

I made a similiar decision and lunged straight into All Grain.

I went with 2x 45L for Mashtun / HLT & a 97L Robinox for the Boiler.
The 45L Mashtun can easily produce 55L at 1.050 SG (Most i have done to date - Pretty thin mash with around 11KG grain / 30L water)

I wouldn't go any larger then a 65L batch - The initial boil volume is around the 80-85 Liter mark once you take into account the hops / water expansion / evaporation.

I have been sitting on 50~55L brews lately, as they fill a 60L fermenter nicely and end up filling 2 x 19L kegs, 1 x 9L keg & half a carton of bottles.

The best part is that i only have to brew once every 2-3 weeks.
Currently producing more than our household can drink.

 

[Fodder]

agree with bfbiab to start with, but i am heavily biased. if you need to brew bigger batches you can use the 140L pot as your new mash tun

i'd also get friendly with small batch brewing to test out different recipes. making 90L of palestoutlagerdoppelweisbock is a fantastic feat - but you then have to drink it

I didnt catch a word of that.

Too busy checking out your pic...

 

[Clutch]

I'd go BIAB with an urn to start off with. Then look at a Braumeister.

I'm still tossing up to upgrade early next year to the 50L or the 200L...

 

[kymba]

I didnt catch a word of that.

Too busy checking out your pic...

heh, did that on purpose to offset the low quality of my posts

it's like a reward for your eyes!

 

[VBisGod]

Brewing on any system beit 3v, biab etc is great, so are partials. Finding whats right for you is the key. Interesting reading all the posts and little mention of yeast coming into play re. brewing. Can be a huge downside building starters re time, sanitation, counts. A normal 3v brewday may take 4 hours but whack in all the time spent preparing starters etc. Its a great hobby when you have the time to make a beer, yeast can be exxcy and a pita though if you are an occasional brewer.

 

[donburke]

Brewing on any system beit 3v, biab etc is great, so are partials. Finding whats right for you is the key. Interesting reading all the posts and little mention of yeast coming into play re. brewing. Can be a huge downside building starters re time, sanitation, counts. A normal 3v brewday may take 4 hours but whack in all the time spent preparing starters etc. Its a great hobby when you have the time to make a beer, yeast can be exxcy and a pita though if you are an occasional brewer.

hey vbisgod, got a good vb clone recipe ?