Squat 23 And 12 Litre Kegs

[fifteenbeerslater]

The pressure releif valve should bolw off gas at a factory predetirmed pressure say 60 psi well before there is any distortion to the pressue vessel (keg). It would be simple for the factory to down grade the rating by installing a pressure relief valve at say 40 psi, this should overcome the problem of over pressure.
Cheers 15BL :beer:

 

[dicko]

Hi PP,

I was hoping that this problem may be sorted out at this level and the results / decision / outcome may be in time, posted here on this forum. From past experiences I would imagine that most retailers would know of this problem.

"Bad news within the brewing community usually spreads quicker than VD".

I am in the unfortunate position that I live 600 klms from the retailer and as such I just can't pop in (pardon the pun) after work.
I was also hoping that the importer/ distributor or even the manufacturer might come up with a solution rather than money back, as the concept of these kegs being 23 litre and squat in height suit my plans for a new bar kegerator (read converted freezer).
BTW I have spoken to Bill from Brewmaker at Holden Hill and he is more than happy to give me a refund.

Cheers

 

[sintax69]

fifteenbeerslater that was what i was thinking as I read all these threads change the releif valve then you pressurize till the valve goes hiss then shake the sh@# out of it easy and no beach ball kegs

Then again if the kegs are made to such a high quality then relief valve may be on par with the rest of the unit

 

[PistolPatch]

As this size keg has so many advantages for me (see the last 2 pics in Post #1 of this thread), I certainly have a desire for them to succeed! For the moment, I will get my popped keg replaced and manage my kegs according to the manufacturer's 'new' instructions.

Hopefully, the manufacturers will do as you have suggested and simply change the pressure valve. That seems a simple solution that would entirely solve the problem.

However, all of the above has really made me wonder about any type of keg. From now on, I would like to know the answer to the following 2 questions, for any type of keg...

1. What pressure will the vessel explode at? (Whether it be corny's or Brew Bratts?)

Let's assume the answer above is 100PSI. This means, according to BrissyBrew, that it will deform at 50PSI. If so,

2. At what pressure then should the release valve activate?

The reason I want to know the above is because of the valid points dicko mentioned in Post #36. (And dicko, your pun was fun in #42!) Having an answer to these 2 questions will let us know what type of release valve to fit to a keg. More importantly the answer to Q1 should tell us what type of regulator to use.

Either a regulator or a release valve might fail. For both of them to fail though would be rare. I am trying to summarise safe practices of keg use here and I think it boils down to...

1. Know what pressure your keg will explode at.
2. Ensure that your regulator does not approach this pressure to within, let's say, 25%/50% - I don't know? (Surely it should be mandatory for the reg to not even approach the explosive pressure of a given vessel??? I've certainly just assumed this.)
3. Regularly test your pressure valve by exceeding it's pressure and ensuring that it activates. If it doesn't buy a new one immediately.

The above sounds sensible to me and, after dicko's comments, it would be nice to know that a child or someone who is a little blind cannot fiddle around with a reg and blow everyone up. Is this sensible?

 

[als_world]

However, all of the above has really made me wonder about any type of keg. From now on, I would like to know the answer to the following 2 questions, for any type of keg...

1. What pressure will the vessel explode at? (Whether it be corny's or Brew Bratts?)

Let's assume the answer above is 100PSI. This means, according to BrissyBrew, that it will deform at 50PSI. If so,

2. At what pressure then should the release valve activate?

PP, I just had a quick check of my cornies and reg. Hope this info is useful:

- Every cornie has a stamp stating "max working pressure 130PSI"
- Every cornie also has a NSF certification stamp (http://www.nsf.org/)
- Every cornie keg has a serial number

Therefore, you could reasonably assume that each keg is traceable and that new cornie original relief valves should operate reliably at 130psi (or within tolerance). I imagine the absolute max pressure would be 2-3 times this. I would think any specification would say that deformation should not occur at or below the max working pressure.

1. Know what pressure your keg will explode at.
2. Ensure that your regulator does not approach this pressure to within, let's say, 25%/50% - I don't know? (Surely it should be mandatory for the reg to not even approach the explosive pressure of a given vessel??? I've certainly just assumed this.)
3. Regularly test your pressure valve by exceeding it's pressure and ensuring that it activates. If it doesn't buy a new one immediately.

My reg (Harris 601) maxes out at 90PSI, so no chance of testing the pressure release valve. Having said that, it is possible I guess for a reg to fail "open circuit" and allow the full cylinder pressure (800PSI) to the keg.

The design of cornie relief valves seems to be "fail safe" rather than "fail secure", so I'm not too worried about it failing, but it would be prudent to check occasionally.

Cheers,

Alan.

 

[Ross]

Sorry for the late reply, but been snowed under with work from my new "hop venture".
Went to my local hbs to pick up grain for 4 brews this week & asked for an update.
Apparently it is now Morgans that import these kegs. They were initialy designed/imported by my local hbs, but Morgans have taken over the rights. So Morgans are the Company that need to resolve this problem.
I'm informed that the initial kegs imported, came with the pressure warning on an included "how to use" leaflet - though I can't comment on what Morgans have been including with their imports, as I don't know.
I believe Morgans are looking at a base for the kegs they have already imported & it's been suggested to them, to pop all the kegs & sell with the stand. I don't know if this is the way they'll go, but I think it's the most likely outcome. Obviously if the keg & stand don't fit your fridge, you won't be buying one.
My understanding is, that this problem will be overcome before the next shipment with a design change - but again that's down to Morgan's now.
I'm sure Morgan's wouldn't hesitate to refund disastified customers; but using the keg properly within it's design limitations, I believe it's a good product.
No affiliation whatsoever etc etc....

cheers Ross

 

[dicko]

Sorry for the late reply, but been snowed under with work from my new "hop venture".
Went to my local hbs to pick up grain for 4 brews this week & asked for an update.
Apparently it is now Morgans that import these kegs. They were initialy designed/imported by my local hbs, but Morgans have taken over the rights. So Morgans are the Company that need to resolve this problem.
I'm informed that the initial kegs imported, came with the pressure warning on an included "how to use" leaflet - though I can't comment on what Morgans have been including with their imports, as I don't know.
I believe Morgans are looking at a base for the kegs they have already imported & it's been suggested to them, to pop all the kegs & sell with the stand. I don't know if this is the way they'll go, but I think it's the most likely outcome. Obviously if the keg & stand don't fit your fridge, you won't be buying one.
My understanding is, that this problem will be overcome before the next shipment with a design change - but again that's down to Morgan's now.
I'm sure Morgan's wouldn't hesitate to refund disastified customers; but using the keg properly within it's design limitations, I believe it's a good product.
No affiliation whatsoever etc etc....

cheers Ross

[post="117965"][/post]​

Hi Ross,
Thanks for getting back to us all.
I have tried to talk to Morgans on another matter some time ago without much success, I might add.
The keg on a stand wont be any good to me, however, when I am in Adelaide next I will go and see my supplier and see if Morgans will swap the suspect kegs for the new and modified ones.
As I said in a previous post, my supplier will refund, however, the concept of the keg is ideal for HB.
ie; Low in height, 23 litre capacity etc etc.
Cheers and thanks once again,

 

[PistolPatch]

Like Ross, I've been a little flat out with a wedding, work etc., Although, many hours of this were spent drinking brews in 2 of the above Brew Bratt Kegs from my new esky 'party keg cooler,' which worked unbelievably well for 13 hours!

General Update - Haven't had time to even ring HBS re refund on keg. Will do on Thursday when the head guy is on.

Alan - Thanks very much for the info. I agree that one should reasonably expect a pressure releif valve to blow somewhere between operating pressure and deformation pressure favouring highly the lower side. (My regs pretty close to yours by the way - 85.)

Ross - I thought it was Morgans! Ah! I can safely say that your HBS would have transferred rights to Morgan's before importation as mine were off the first container. As for the stand, that is not going to wash with me as I know they were originally thought of so as the kegs could be stacked. As I mentioned above, the stand's, 'new use,' is simply that. Also, who wants a keg that they can't stand up without sitting it on a stand? Which leads to....

Dicko - I'm going to ask for an immediate replacement of my deformed keg and furthermore ask for 2 new replacements once the design/pressure valve problem is resolved. I certainly didn't receive a leaflet and my HBS guy actually marked my reg (bought on the same day) at 350.

I may attempt contacting Morgan's via email regarding this whole problem before Thursday if I get in the mood. If there's a response I will post back here straight away.

If they can solve this problem, they'll have a great little product. It holds a full brew, is easy to clean and fits in a lot of places that a corny won't.

 

[PistolPatch]

UPDATE: Finally had a chance to drop into HBS re popped keg. YOu're going to love this!

Apparently the problem is easily solved by using the heel of your foot to push the keg back to its original concave position! Oh! And the relief valve is set for 90PSI!

I am too stunned to make further comment.

 

[Guest Lurker]

Oh dear, have they heard of metal fatigue?

 

[BrissyBrew]

They are many months off (still in the design phase) but I have kegs in the pipeline as well.

What a "heal" hey.

 

[PistolPatch]

Hi there Brissy. Can't believe you just posted here. I was just thinking about how on earth you are meant to use the heel of your foot to push the keg bottom back in and this triggered me to sign onto AHB. Yours was the top thread!

Be damn nice to see another keg on the market. Can't wait!

I think the features of the Brew-Bratt kegs that interest me are them being short and squat and holding 23 litres if that's any help.

Their, 'How To Use,' Brochure they have put out is actually well-written so see if you can get a copy (I have no scanner.) It even contains some humour on what to do if your keg empties too quickly. They advise...

"Slow down drinking habits, decrease social circle and make more beer."

What do you think of the 90PSI relief valve?

 

[PistolPatch]

I ended up contacting Lyndsay at Quality Home Brew Supplies and he replaced the keg straight away. I meant to post this before but forgot.

Yesterday I ran into the guy whose company brought the kegs in. Gained a lot of info from him that may be of interest...

As I mentioned above, they have distributed the, 'how to use' brochure to existing owners. I had missed out as I was in the first order. The next lot they bring in will have a new pressure relief valve (lower pressure) as well as a star shaped base.

The wall thickness of these kegs is thicker than the US cornies but less than the Australian cornies, therefore the explosive rating is somewhere between the 2 - can't remember the exact figure. The concave bottom was used to avoid having to vulcanise a rubber base to the kegs to lower the cost. The star shaped pattern on the new kegs will strengthen this weakness but they will keep the force carbonation recommendations the same.

Cheers
PP

 

[Pumpy]

I would really like to purchase a 12 litre keg with the star shaped base but they are $160 at my local brew shop this seems very expensive , has anyone found a reasonably priced source for this product

Pumpy

 

[JasonY]

I would really like to purchase a 12 litre keg with the star shaped base but they are $160 at my local brew shop this seems very expensive , has anyone found a reasonably priced source for this product

Pumpy

If thats for a brand new one then it sounds not too bad given they seem to be going for $100+ on ebay and the like?

Can't help on the cheaper side of things unfortunately ... seen the old ones for $135 at beertech in Perth but if you can get a new one for $25 more then I would go for that.

 

[Hogan]

Just bought a new one of these 23 lt Morgans squat kegs at my local HBS.

The lid is oval as opposed to what appears to be a round one on PP's photo.

The base is still the same - no star to stop the pop-out.

Bit concerned about what appears to be a repair job on one of the bottom rim welds and some oxidation/ rusting of that particular spot on the inside.

Any views on this or is it to be expected from chinese manufacture.


Cheers, Hoges.

 

[Cortez The Killer]

Has anyone got the 12 litre brew brat keg dimensions?

Can't seem to find it anywhere

Cheers

 

[Cortez The Killer]

In case anyone wants to know

The kegs are 280mm in diameter and about the same height + the disconnects

Cheers

Has anyone got the 12 litre brew brat keg dimensions?

Can't seem to find it anywhere

Cheers