spec grains before and after mashing, difference in fg

[black_labb]

I've mucked around adding spec grains after the mash (at mash out/sparge) and have found that there is often quite a large difference in fg, particularly when using crystals. I believe that much of it is because the unfermentable sugars in the crystal malts often are converted to fermentable sugars during then mash just like any other long chain sugar or starch would be.

For example I did a partigyle barley wine/mild. I drained off the first runnings for the BW and added 400g of spec malts (300 golden naked oats, 50g spec b and 50g black). There were already 200g of crystals in the BW as well as other spec malts. The mild with an of of 1035 finished at 1015 giving a vere low attenuation. The BW started at 1086 with an additional uncalculated 50ml/L of dark candy sugar. It should finish at about the same FG. /

I've noticed similar effects when doing a kits and bits beer with a friend and used the same amount of crystal I would have used in an at batch and found the crystal much more dominant in the kits and bits brew.

It seems silly to expect that enzymes break down starches and long chain sugars in a mash but magically leave the sugars in spec malts alone. Is the common understanding flawed?

 

[NewtownClown]

They way I have always understood it.
Crystal/caramel malts have already been converted. The "mash", essentially, has already occurred in the grain during the process utilised to produce it. They are wetted then heated to a mash temp for a period, then the temp. is raised to dry the kernels and kilned for a combination of temp/time to crystallise the sugar to produce the various crystal/caramel malt.
Roast malts are malted barley that has been kilned at a high temp. The enzymes destroyed and I suspect changes to the starches prevent conversion.
Kilned malts (Biscuit, Victory, Vienna, etc) are just base malts that have been "cured" at a higher temp. or even kilned for a short time.

 

[black_labb]

They way I have always understood it.
Crystal/caramel malts have already been converted. The "mash", essentially, has already occurred in the grain during the process utilised to produce it. They are wetted then heated to a mash temp for a period, then the temp. is raised to dry the kernels and kilned for a combination of temp/time to crystallise the sugar to produce the various crystal/caramel malt.
Roast malts are malted barley that has been kilned at a high temp. The enzymes destroyed and I suspect changes to the starches prevent conversion.
Kilned malts (Biscuit, Victory, Vienna, etc) are just base malts that have been "cured" at a higher temp. or even kilned for a short time.

I understand that, but if you use that crystal malt in a mash where there are enzymes available from the other malted grains would these enzymes not break the complex sugars in the crystal malts? I'm suggesting that a crystal malt can be thought of as a adjunct like rice, corn or unmalted oats where the complex sugars available are converted to simple sugars by the enzymes in the malted barley.

 

[black_labb]

anyone in the evening crowd?

 

[thylacine]

I've mucked around adding spec grains after the mash (at mash out/sparge) and have found that there is often quite a large difference in fg, particularly when using crystals. I believe that much of it is because the unfermentable sugars in the crystal malts often are converted to fermentable sugars during then mash just like any other long chain sugar or starch would be.

For example I did a partigyle barley wine/mild. I drained off the first runnings for the BW and added 400g of spec malts (300 golden naked oats, 50g spec b and 50g black). There were already 200g of crystals in the BW as well as other spec malts. The mild with an of of 1035 finished at 1015 giving a vere low attenuation. The BW started at 1086 with an additional uncalculated 50ml/L of dark candy sugar. It should finish at about the same FG. /

I've noticed similar effects when doing a kits and bits beer with a friend and used the same amount of crystal I would have used in an at batch and found the crystal much more dominant in the kits and bits brew.

It seems silly to expect that enzymes break down starches and long chain sugars in a mash but magically leave the sugars in spec malts alone. Is the common understanding flawed?

1) A thread re adding spec grains after mashing. http://www.biabrewer.info/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=246





2) "...We discuss the best use of dark grains – steeping them instead of mashing in most cases to reduce harshness in darker beers..."




http://beersmith.com/blog/2012/05/31/advanced-home-brewing-with-gordon-strong-beersmith-podcast-39/

 

[black_labb]

Thanks Thylacine. I'm more focused on crystals/cara grains with this and their effect on FG in particular. I have heard of the difference when using roasted spec grains and have experienced it (though not in a side by side brew).

I will keep reding through the thread and some links to texts as I'm sure there are ideas on it I have missed.