Sous Vide

[Thirsty Boy]

Been reading up about Sous Vide cooking. It seems that what you need is a vacuum wrapper and an accurately temperature controlled circulating water bath...

I have a vac wrapper for hops etc
I have a RIMS system
I have a blowtorch (apparently handy for this style of cooking)

Therefore I believe that I have all that is required to cook this way without poisoning anyone. And so do a fair few other rims/herms brewers I could think of.

Gonna give it a shot after New Year... I think I will be able to combine it with stuff I learn from my Christmas scored Charcuterie book

Anyone tried it out? Any chefs done it properly who have hints?

Thirsty

 

[Mercs Own]

I have cooked with chefs who have used this method of cooking and eaten their food. It is interesting....if you cook a rack of lamb or an eye fillet by this method it is done over a long period of time and results in a peice of meat that kind of looks like it hasnt really been cooked and has the texture of something other than what we understand as a cooked rack or eye fillet. From what I understand it is mostly about the texture of the finished/cooked product which is nothing like the texture of a traditionally cooked peice of meat. The reason you would require a blow torch is to add some caramelisation and some crust or texture....I dont really get it.

I cooked with a chef in NZ who was right into his scientific gastronomy. He made this dish that had all sorts of concoctions and chemical reacting bits and pieces etc I totaled up the man hours required to make his dish and it was 60 hours including the sous vide rack of lamb. Took 15 minutes to eat it and to be honest it was nothing special - presentation was mind blowing but the actual eating was considering the hours that went in to it pretty ordinary. I coooked a lamb and artichoke dish that took 40 minutes to cook and 15 minutes to eat. I over cooked the lamb a bit and it ate about as ordinary as his dish - I however had 59 hours and 20 minutes spare to have a life.

Look forward to hearing how your experiments go.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Yeah, I'm not too sure about it.. I've never had food that I knew for sure was done sous vide, but I ate at cutler and co the other day... and I just cant work out how you could do lamb like McConnell's unless it was sous vide. Absolutely melt in the mouth tender and aside from a 2-3mm crust of roastiness on the outside... the inside was perfectly uniformly cooked. medium rare from one side to the other, no variation at all between the center and the edges. It had to have been cooked in a way that brought the whole piece of meat to that level of "done" all at the same time. Then just finished in a scorching hot oven or pan (or blowtorched). It was fantastic and worth trying to emulate.

I'm also interested in combining some of the notions of slow smoking and this technique. I have recipes that call for what I think are probably dangerous temperature regimes in a smoker... I think that I can get the fine/precise temperature control needed for safety and still get the length of cooking time required for tenderness, using the sous vide - then finish for a shorter time at a higher temperature in the smoker for flavour and texture. So essentially instead of a separate temperature controlled smoker - the sous vide takes care of that... then the "smoking" can be done in an old wok or something like you would for tea smoked duck.

Easy for me to experiment anyway - having the RIMS means its a no effort gig, I just need to get me some bits'o'meat to experiment on.

TB

 

[kook]

I've tried salmon so far, but not been game to try poultry or red meat.

I just cleaned the fillets well, vac sealed them and used a saucepan on the stove. I probably should have used the HLT, but didn't plan ahead and didn't want to run the risk of the fillets touching the element. It wasn't easy to keep the temp steady, but the results were very good. Much better than pan frying, it was fully cooked, more well done than I'd normally pan fry salmon. The difference was the flesh retained all the moisture, was delicious. I peeled the skin, as it was quite soggy.

I'd love to try a rib eye done this way, then blowtorch the outside to get some char.

Leftover meat (ribs, pork butt, chicken breasts, etc) from the smoker is immediately vac sealed these days - I then just sit it in gently simmering water to reheat it. Turns out great.

 

[ausdb]

I havent tried it yet but have read a heap, some sources are very anal about having better than 0.5C range in temp control whilst cooking
Egullet forums have a massive thread on it and there is a pdf download here worth reading sous vide pdf
I grabbed an old rice cooker but haven't been arsed to hack a temp controller yet to have a go (my hlt is manually gas fired so not exactly hi tech when it comes to maintaining stable temps)

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Yeah - I can do to within 1C -- its probably stable at better than that.. but I have nothing apart from a manual scientific thermometer capable of reading to that level of accuracy anyway.

The RIMS could do to better than 0.5C .. if I could make my ******* PID work with the PT100 sensors I bought... but it wont play despite being supposed to work with them. I'm probably doing it wrong - sigh.

I think 1C will suffice anyway - thanks for the links

TB

 

[Thirsty Boy]

alright - so I am giving it a crack. Buggering about in the brewery at this time of night is out of order, so I am in the kitchen with a jury rigged set-up.

I have:

A 1200W solid element electric hotplate for heat
A PID for control
An aquarium bubbler to make sure the water circulates in the pot

The last hour and a half or so has been devoted to tuning the PID.. it takes ages with this hotplate because its a brick of a heat source and overshoots like buggery unless the PID damps the hell out of it.. then it always damps too much on auto tune and needs tweaking.

I have me three small bits of eye fillet and one bit of gnarley looking blade steak - I shall cook two of the bits of eyefillet to medium rare (54.5C) and I'll eat one as is ad char one up on the cast iron grill... compare. The blade and the other bit of fillet will stay in the water bath till tomorrow lunchtime - see what 12hrs cooking time does to a shit piece of meat and with a comparison to a decent bit. I have also pre-salted a coupe of the bits of meat, so the lengthy time in the bath will also be kind of "brining" them as well - a weird mix between curing and cooking!!

I shall report on the results in a few hours.

No photos sorry - swmbo has the camera away with her at the outlaw's place for x-mas

TB

PS - just dropped the meat in the bath... fingers crossed

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Dear sainted mother of Jeebus.... no - not mother of Jeebus, Great Granny of Jeebus!!

If God had a grandmother, and she died clutching to her miraculous chest the recipe and technique for the perfect steak - - and all three of the Father, Son and that good for nothing dodgey uncle of a Holy Ghost; spent their whole eternal existance trying to replicate the way granny's steak tasted.. but never quite got it right...... Well, their best efforts would taste something quite like the steak I just ate.

Meltingly tender, full of flavour, perfectly medium rare from edge to edge, juicy.... and every other way you could think to describe a really really really good steak.

about 75minutes at 55 in the water bath - about 20 seconds per side on a smoking hot cast iron grillplate (Olive oil. Peanut or Rice bran oil would be hotter and better I suspect) - and it was the best steak, bar none, 20 years of trying, seriously I almost bloody wept; that I have ever cooked.

I say that this sous vide stuff seems to have promise.

We'll see how the two bits left in there (one good eye fillet, one "blade" steak) go after another 8-10 hours in there!

TB

 

[kirem]

I see Heston Blumenthal using a water bath to cook with quite a bit, I have the Fat Duck Cookbook on it's way in company with the Ad Hoc cookbook, so I'll see what may be in those two books.

I also got Merc's new book for Christmas, no mention of Sous Vide in that one :icon_cheers:

Heston is amazing, I love the science, but want to know more, like what is happening at a molecular level.

I used some of the information I could find on the web about what temp for what meat and I have cooked a lot of meat slowly.

Although not Sous Vide, slow cooking does melt in the mouth as well.

Roast lamb is always a hit, I prepare the oven to 220degC and then the usual salt, pepper, olive oil, corriander, cumin to the outside of the lamb and some slices of garlic under the skin. I then blast the outside of the meat to kill any surface bacteria in the oven. I have read that meat that hasn't been minced or any other method that allows oxygen inside the meat structure could only have bacteria on the outside. IE minced meat has pockets of oxygen through it and a joint of meat doesn't.

anyway, once the joint shows signs of caramelisation on the outside I remove it from the oven and set the oven to 82. I use an internal thermometer in the oven and then tweak the the oven temperature knob. I leave the oven door open to help the oven get back down to temperature approx (82degC) then put the joint back in and leave it, just checking that the thermostat is set at 82degC

normally I do this first thing in the morning before breakfast - about 6-7am and we eat about 7-8, over 12 hours! The lamb is sensational

I just change the temp for other meats;
Pork-77
Rare Beef-60, medium 71 and well done 77
Poultry-87

The best outcome I have had with slow cooking is a rare roast beef fillet. Matched with some horseradish, brussel sprouts, properly cooked potatoes (this is a whole other area of cooking at the right temperature) and high quality Cab Sauv

I have access to some very good Mallee meats, especially lamb and beef, but I have done quail and it retains its moisture

I have also been getting into some high quality rib eye steaks, beautifully marbled and aged. I slow cook these in the oven at 60degC, without blasting them first. Leave them for sometimes 2 hours or more. I then get the grill on the BBQ nice and hot and caramelise the outside.
I have never tasted better steak.

they cost me about $20 for 2

I have cooked them by just the normal 'put them on the bbq and turn' and the difference is like chalk and cheese.

I would love to do the slow cook part in a water bath and have my eye out for a suitable water bath that I can retrofit with some PID temperature control.

 

[Airgead]

about 75minutes at 55 in the water bath - about 20 seconds per side on a smoking hot cast iron grillplate (Olive oil. Peanut or Rice bran oil would be hotter and better I suspect) - and it was the best steak, bar none, 20 years of trying, seriously I almost bloody wept; that I have ever cooked.

Sounds good but I can get the same effect with 5 mins and a hot black iron pan. Perfectly medium rare (or rare or whatever you like) and nicely browned on the outside. A few flames for a nice hint of smoke...

I'm sure you can do wonderful things with the boil in a bag method but to me it takes the fun out of cooking.

Cheers
Dave

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Sounds good but I can get the same effect with 5 mins and a hot black iron pan. Perfectly medium rare (or rare or whatever you like) and nicely browned on the outside. A few flames for a nice hint of smoke...

I'm sure you can do wonderful things with the boil in a bag method but to me it takes the fun out of cooking.

Cheers
Dave

not the same... Its not like I haven't been cooking steak for 20 years. I have the cast iron pan, I know how steak works - I can cook a great steak and regularly do... but the very first time I tried this, I cooked the best steak I have ever cooked. The thing here is that you get to slow cook it like its a braise, getting all the attendant breakdown of collagen into gelatin you get from a braise - but it never gets overcooked. You cant do that in a hot pan.

To me the fun of cooking is making something thats wonderful to eat - this thing is just another tool in the chest so that I can do that.

TB

 

[Bizier]

I might measure what the low temp on my slow cooker is when it is filled with water. I very much like the sound of this TB.

 

[leiothrix]

Silly question - where are you getting your PIDs from? Is there any particular modal that people tend to use?

I've had a quick look on evilbay and there is a variation from ~$40 - $150 or so. They all look the same to me though.

I'm going to cook me a nice bit of scotch fillet tonight, but using the stove and the thermometer & thermocouple from my DMM and manually adjusting the temperature is a real PITA.

Rob.

 

[Steve]

I see Heston Blumenthal using a water bath to cook with quite a bit, I have the Fat Duck Cookbook on it's way in company with the Ad Hoc cookbook, so I'll see what may be in those two books.

I also got Merc's new book for Christmas, no mention of Sous Vide in that one :icon_cheers:

Heston is amazing, I love the science, but want to know more, like what is happening at a molecular level.

I used some of the information I could find on the web about what temp for what meat and I have cooked a lot of meat slowly.

Although not Sous Vide, slow cooking does melt in the mouth as well.

Roast lamb is always a hit, I prepare the oven to 220degC and then the usual salt, pepper, olive oil, corriander, cumin to the outside of the lamb and some slices of garlic under the skin. I then blast the outside of the meat to kill any surface bacteria in the oven. I have read that meat that hasn't been minced or any other method that allows oxygen inside the meat structure could only have bacteria on the outside. IE minced meat has pockets of oxygen through it and a joint of meat doesn't.

anyway, once the joint shows signs of caramelisation on the outside I remove it from the oven and set the oven to 82. I use an internal thermometer in the oven and then tweak the the oven temperature knob. I leave the oven door open to help the oven get back down to temperature approx (82degC) then put the joint back in and leave it, just checking that the thermostat is set at 82degC

normally I do this first thing in the morning before breakfast - about 6-7am and we eat about 7-8, over 12 hours! The lamb is sensational

I just change the temp for other meats;
Pork-77
Rare Beef-60, medium 71 and well done 77
Poultry-87

The best outcome I have had with slow cooking is a rare roast beef fillet. Matched with some horseradish, brussel sprouts, properly cooked potatoes (this is a whole other area of cooking at the right temperature) and high quality Cab Sauv

I have access to some very good Mallee meats, especially lamb and beef, but I have done quail and it retains its moisture

I have also been getting into some high quality rib eye steaks, beautifully marbled and aged. I slow cook these in the oven at 60degC, without blasting them first. Leave them for sometimes 2 hours or more. I then get the grill on the BBQ nice and hot and caramelise the outside.
I have never tasted better steak.

they cost me about $20 for 2

I have cooked them by just the normal 'put them on the bbq and turn' and the difference is like chalk and cheese.

I would love to do the slow cook part in a water bath and have my eye out for a suitable water bath that I can retrofit with some PID temperature control.

:icon_offtopic: just so happens i have a nice leg of lamb in the fridge at the moment. Will marinade over night with the garlic, coriander, cumin, salt n pepper and bung 'er in the oven in the morning for the day.
Cheers
steve

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Silly question - where are you getting your PIDs from? Is there any particular modal that people tend to use?

I've had a quick look on evilbay and there is a variation from ~$40 - $150 or so. They all look the same to me though.

I'm going to cook me a nice bit of scotch fillet tonight, but using the stove and the thermometer & thermocouple from my DMM and manually adjusting the temperature is a real PITA.

Rob.

I use the cheap ones off evil bay - you just need to be careful that the output is the type you want. No good buying one that can only run an SSR if you want to use a mechanical relay. And if you buy one with inbuilt mechanical relays.. that they are capable of handling the current you want to put through them.

I use my PID with 3A relays, to switch a 12V DC power supply, which energises the coil for my 10A load bearing relay. Probably easier to use an SSR, but no good for my brewery the way its set-up, so mech relays it is.

 

[leiothrix]

Probably easier to use an SSR, but no good for my brewery the way its set-up, so mech relays it is.

Out of curiosity what's the reason that your brewery can't use SSRs? The only reason that i can think of off the top of my head is if you're using latching relays. Or perhaps needing a DPDT output and not wanting to buy four SSRs to do what one mech relay can do.

Though I suppose listening to the 'click' sound is kinda satisfying in a strange way :blink:

I think I'm going to get me one of these. Hook it up to an SSR and get myself a deep fryer or rice cooker or something. The aquarium air pump is a great idea too, got a few of them kicking around somewhere.

Rob.

 

[leiothrix]

Thinking about it more, I BIAB with a 40L urn with the boil dry protection removed.

I could hook the PID up to that and use that instead.

I like the idea of the aquarium pump to move water around. Has anyone tried this for mashing? I figure if I put a SS colander on the bottom to protect the bag from the element, drop the airline in (weighted with some copper wire or something) I would be able to do step mashes, or just to leave it at the set point without stuffing around with insulating the urn or stirring or anything.

Are there any issues with aerating the wort as it's mashing?

Rob.

 

[Bizier]

:icon_offtopic:

Are there any issues with aerating the wort as it's mashing?

If you wish hard enough, HSA is not an issue.

Sorry TB.

 

[leiothrix]

:icon_offtopic:


If you wish hard enough, HSA is not an issue.

Sorry TB.

I'm guessing that wasn't directed at me, but anyway. My understanding was that HSA was when hot wort (i.e. post boil) was aerated. I've never read anything even mentioning the affect of aerating during the mash.

Rob.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

sorry - HSA happens in the mash too. More technically you call it mash/boil aeration. Generally I would say HSA isn't an issue for homebrewers... but then again, no one has ever suggested putting an air bubbler in their mash to me before either. I suspect that might be pushing it a bit too far. Plus I doubt it would work. Mashes are a lot thicker than water.

I use mechanical relays because when I was building my brewery I understood how they worked but didn't understand SSRs - and I keep them because I use a "two channel" relay with my RIMS on the NC side and my HLT on the NO side - so I never pull more than 10A of power total in my brewery. Which stops my power lead from melting and keeps the house from tripping out when my beloved puts the kettle on. Plus I have 4 or 5 of them. When they all burn out - or I get more electricity - I will probably swap to SSR. Actually I will probably buy a new PID with SSR for use specifically in Sous Vide, Smoking, Cheesemaking and fermentation temp control. Its only the brewery itself that needs the mech relays.