Sodium Percarbonate - Sydney/Hills District

[Tex N Oz]

Hey guys,
I just bought a 25kg bag of perc and was just putting it out that if anyone in the NSW Hills district wanted some, just let me know. My cost was $4/kg delivered and I'm happy to sell it on at that price.
While I did find a cheaper supplier, no one wanted to deal with shipping to Sydney.
I've divided it up in 1kg heavy duty seal bags and labelled them.
I'm selling on 20 kg if anyone is interested.

The reason for the purchase was to experiment with with different alkyls to find a nice PBW replacement. In the future I'll be buying sodium tripolyphosphate (STPP), tetrapotassium pyrophosphate (TKPP), Trisodium Phosphate (TSP) and possibly a few other salts, buffers, surfactant and chelating agents. I'm happy to bulk buy those as well in the future if anyone is interested.

 

[Mardoo]

We use sodium metasilicate down here in VIC as the second half of the homemade PBW.

 

[Aydos]

Have you got a recipe or something that you are trialing for a home made pbw or just guessing?

 

[Tex N Oz]

Hi Noob!!

Yes, PBW is about 30% sodium metasilicate. Home-made PBW is about 90% correct but only about 50% as effective. The reason is that it's lacking chelating agents and decent surfactants.
The chelating agents used in PBW are unavailable to just about anyone but huge manufacturers. I suspect they're using 1-Hydroxyethylidene-1,1-diphosphonic acid which is a phosphonate compound.
So far I've made a cleaner that's much more effective than PBW (which is difficult to quantify) but it's high in phosphates which might rub the enviroliticians the wrong way.
I'll be posting a recipe once I've got it sorted.

 

[breakbeer]

Sounds like the stuff you want to make could clean a nuclear reactor & then brew in it afterwards

Sodium Perc just by itself performs brewery cleaning miracles, just not sure there's a need for a super powered version of it?

 

[Tex N Oz]

Hi Breakbeer,

That would make one helluva brew pot!!

Sodium percarb is simply hydrogen peroxide 30% and sodium carbonate 70%. It lacks a builder/chelating agent, detergent, surfactant, sequestering agent, etc.
It lacks everything needed to be called a wash.
Star-San is happy to say PBW is mostly "meta and perc" but the reality is the magic is performed by the other components in their formulary. Almost like Coke saying their soda is made with water and sugar.
With that said, if percarb works wonders for you then that's great news. I struggle with PBW sometimes and often resort to 25% sodium hydroxide solution, phosphates and heaps of heat.

Starting to look like the neighbours will have home-made Oxiclean for yonks..

 

[Mardoo]

Very interested in the possibility of adding a good surfactant to the home made PBW mix. It works well for me as is, but I can see the value of the surfactant in the mix. Is the cheating agent primarily for mineral removal?

Subscribed!

 

[Tex N Oz]

Hi Mardoo.

Sorry I called you Noob in a previous post. Still new to this forum and half blind (hard session) at the time.
Without a surfactant the detergent lack penetration thus works much slower. You are spot on with the chelating question. It binds with the metal ions aiding to soften water and remove mineral deposits which are metals of course. It's especially good for beer stone which is calcium oxalate. The huge challenge is to find all these agents that play well together at high pH.

I know a lot of people might think this overkill but I'm building 4 x 170 ltr fermentation vessels that will be used for both beer and milk. Because I'm also using them for milk, I don't want too many access ports and definitely not an opening top. This means it has to be CIP and I want detergents that works very well, wont pit the high finish and are affordable.

Been working on it for some time now.

I'm just a very bored, retired engineer..

 

[DJ_L3ThAL]

Excuse my ignorance, but I thought the meta silicate was a surfactant and hence why the homemade stuff worked so well just by soaking?

 

[Tex N Oz]

Hi DJ_L3ThAL,

Meta is an auxiliary to detergents as a water softener and a pH buffer. It's a carrier and by itself has very little detergent action.



EDIT: It's considered a more eco friendly replacement for phosphates but doesn't work quite as well.

 

[Yob]

there was a bulk buy done by me a number of years ago and a quite respected member offered up a list of obtainable elements I think you may well benefit from having a read.

I didnt go ahead and get him to grab any of it, had my hands full with that BB as I recall..

I'll try to look it up for you.

 

[Yob]

bloody hell.. Ive done more of these buys than I thought

found the quote I was looking for... eventually

You're rambling, but if your chemical supplier also sells (smaller amounts of) Sodium dodecyl sulfate (surfactant/detergent) and Ethylenediaminetetraacetic acid (dissolves limescale, which is a little less important for Melbourne water) you'll be very close to DIY-PBW.

 

[Tex N Oz]

Hi Yob!!

I've been watching your posts for years now. Just recently decided to jump on board.

Yes, SDS is a great surfactant no doubt. One I was eyeing up for my formulary. If I weren't so allergic to sodium laureth sulfate I would consider it's use. That's a personal choice and I may add it anyway just being careful in handling.
The EDTA however is a bit of a different beast. It doesn't play well with other chemicals at higher pH and it has an infinity for nickel which can wreak havoc on that highly polished equipment, especially critical components like the fermenter.
If it weren't for beerstone's high toxicity and ability to harbour bacterial, I wouldn't worry about chelating agents at all as a little film of calcium/magnesium really doesn't contribute to the final product.
Citric acid is an awesome chelating agent for beerstone but it suffers the same pH issues.

 

[Yob]

interested in how you get on..

keep it up :beerbang:

 

[stux]

I just took a few more kilos out of my big bucket of PBW I bought a few years ago

Its beginning to get low... so I'm always interested in something cheaper, but just as good

 

[DJ_L3ThAL]

Far out, how much was that booket?!?!?

 

[AJS2154]

Hi Tex,

If you still have some left, and by the sounds of it you will, I will have a couple of Kgs mate.

I am just at Castle Hill so can drop over at some time that suits you. Would be good to meet a local brewer too!

Regards, Anthony

 

[Tex N Oz]

Sure thing Anothony. Gimme a ring O42ninethree68oo7. We can set up a time that suits. I'm always free these days.

 

[Mr B]

Hey all

I am looking at making a DIY PBW of sorts. Have some Sodium percarbonate and metasilicate, and as I understand it, adding citric acid (which I also have) would be of benefit.

I cannot however find the appropriate ratio's to mix (particularly including the citric. I realise that there is one other chemical as above, however not easily obtainable.

Has anyone mad a mix such as this and be able to advise the rations of percarbonate, metasilicate and citric?

 

[DJ_L3ThAL]

I mix mine 4 parts perc to 1 part meta.