Small Pot Biab/partial

[killspice]

Hey guys, next weekend I plan on doing my first partial (assuming my grain arrives during the week) and would like a little feedback on my plans.

I currently have a 19l and ~9l pot, and 'small' grain bag that fits the 19l pot pretty much perfectly (I got this some time ago as a steeping bag for specialty grains). I've been wanting to get into AG for quite some time, but the budget has held me back until I started reading the biab thread (that i've finally just got through).

From the knowledge gained there I think I am ready to do a biab partial, and assuming that all goes well, a 'high gravity' ag soon after.

I am limiting myself to ~18L batch size to help reduce the limitations of high gravity biab, and plan on the following recipe, aiming at being a light american lager (as the wife likes the light/flavourless american/australian lagers)

1kg pilsner malt, .5kg wheat malt in mash
.75kg ldme (added late in the boil)
.5kg dextrose (added late/after boil)

10g saaz @ 60m, 10g saaz @15m
s-23 yeast

The 19L pot will be my mash/boil vessel, and the 9L will be my hlt/sparge vessel, using a dunk sparge.

using beersmith I have come up with the following
12L water @ 66deg -> add grain and mash for 90m @64deg
mash out to 75deg over 10m, rest for 10m
bring 5.4L to 75deg in the other pot
when mash out completes, dunk the grain in the other pot a few times and squeeze/drain.

add the sparge water to the main pot and bring to boil
boil for 90m, with hop schedule as above

chill, top up to 18L, and ferment.

According to the knowledge from the forum this should help alleviate the issues with high gravity biab efficiencies, so hopefully all goes well. Assuming that works ok, I plan on following a similar mash plan for an AG biab, using DrS JSGA recipe, but with a slightly larger (13L) mash and sparge (7L) due to the higher amount of expected loss to the grain.

I plan on getting a 40L aluminium pot as soon as possible, but that probably won't be until after xmas, so until then I will be trying to perfect this mini-biab and see how my beers go. considering I 'need' chill cubes, a burner, and a new bag when i get the bigger pot, it might actually be longer than that before i get a full-size pot, but we'll see.

 

[manticle]

The hops additions look mighty low, particularly with such a low aa hop. I know you said flavourless but................

 

[killspice]

The hops additions look mighty low, particularly with such a low aa hop. I know you said flavourless but................

beersmith quotes it as 8.6 IBU, which is within the style, the estimated pre-boil gravity (boiling at 15.9L) is 1.052

Would you suggest an additional 10g @ flameout, or say increase to 15g @ 15m? Again, I am aiming for the lite american/australian lagers which are quite bland (talking budweiser, tooheys extra dry, carlton cold etc) to try and get the wife drinking it, the jsga clone is the one for me

 

[manticle]

8 is at the very very low end of the range and to my mind would be barely perceptible. That may mean overly sweet beer.
Also a pre-boil of 1052 will result in a higher post boil gravity which may make it too strong. Obviously you can water that down and get higher volume lower abv beer which is what I'm guessing you plan to do with the proposed AG?

As for any more hops additions - I'd keep the late hop additions minimal as you said you want something that isn't overly challenging. It's the earlier additions I think should be upped a tad. To my mind anything lower than 15-20 is just going to taste like beer cordial.

 

[Damian44]

Do you have a fermentation fridge? You might want a couple of packets of yeast. GL.

 

[killspice]

Do you have a fermentation fridge? You might want a couple of packets of yeast. GL.

Yep, the fridge will be set as 12deg for the primary ferment (2 weeks min) then 4deg for the next 4 weeks before bottling (which will prevent me from brewing my next beer for 6 weeks with the way temps are finally rising around here).

I have been given differing advice on the yeast numbers, A couple of people have said 1 pack will be fine, others have said they would use 2 minimum. I've used single packs of s-23 in k&k's a couple of times with no issues, are ag's/partials less forgiving? I will have some spare ldme so i can make a starter prep a few days earlier (1/3 cup in 1L water) if that would offset the need for a second packet.

 

[marksfish]

i wouls shoot for 15 ibu. i brewed a light beer at 9.9 ibu and a carlton light drinker said it was a little bit lacking in bitterness

 

[RdeVjun]

Mate, good on you for having a shot at it, there's every chance you'll find the results quite rewarding. BIAB partials are an excellent way to get a handle on these different AG processes. You might already be aware of this, but the best part is that you actually don't need to wait until after Xmas to do up a full- sized AG batch. I often make 23 litre AG BIAB batches with exactly that stockpot and a similar sparge vessel. It seems incongruous that a 19 litre pot can do it, but I do them quite often, or at least come very close. This weekend for instance I made a Riwaka SMaSH with 3.4 kg of ale malt, about 20 litres @ 1.052 in the fermenter, but it was boiled at about 16 litres.
The way this is done is with dilution, i.e. with additional water after the boil, usually into the fermenter immediately before pitching. Mash and boil the smaller volume as per usual but keep the grain amount exactly where you would for a bigger system. Hops utilisation takes a hit above 1.050, but it is no drama to add a bit more to account for it.
A useful thread. I'm also working on a guide for a very similar setup, will be a few days before it is ready for posting though.
:icon_cheers:

Edit: Grammar...

 

[seemax]

+1

8IBU is practically sweet barley juice
my recent simple pils with 30IBU of czech saaz even tastes a little under-hopped
worst case, leave it a month in the bottle and that should take the edge off

as for the 40L, to save yourself the expense of a burner, consider the urn option... the cheapo 30L chinese versions on ebay are only $55+postage

 

[killspice]

cheers rdeVjun,

I had taken a look at that thread ( referenced in the main biab thread ) and that is what made me decide my second attempt would be an AG DrS Golden Ale (JS Golden Ale has been my favourite beer for a little while now). The main reason my fist attempt is going to be a partial rather than AG is to ensure my bag handles the grain without issues, and to get used to the process without having to worry too much about efficiency (the ldme and dex will resolve any major efficiency issues).

Assuming that turns out well, the second attempt will be an AG and hopefully be the best beer i've ever brewed

I definitely need to upgrade to a valid beersmith key (can anyone comment on whether a single beersmith key is allowable on multiple pc's, as i have a laptop and main pc that i switch between all the time). For partials/high gravity boils, it is really easy to work out hop utilisation and required water levels, if i was blindly following a recipe it wouldn't be so much of an issue, but with my limited equipment it seems to make things a lot easier.

anyways, fingers crossed my grain arrives and i'll post an update next weekend as it happens

 

[RdeVjun]

Great, good stuff mate and you will have to try hard for the results not to be fantastic. Feel free to post any questions you have, there's lots of helpful brewers on tap here!

Also, StrangeBrew might be useful to you, here's a recent post, it can handle dilution and has the different hops formulae. It isn't perfect though...

:icon_cheers:

 

[WarmBeer]

I definitely need to upgrade to a valid beersmith key (can anyone comment on whether a single beersmith key is allowable on multiple pc's, as i have a laptop and main pc that i switch between all the time).

Yup, you get the ability to use the same key on 2 separate PC's expressly for the purpose of a copy on your PC, and a copy on your laptop.

Of course, now you have the old problem of synchronising your BeerSmith recipe database between these 2 installations.

 

[Nick JD]

... you actually don't need to wait until after Xmas to do up a full- sized AG batch. I often make 23 litre AG BIAB batches with exactly that stockpot and a similar sparge vessel. It seems incongruous that a 19 litre pot can do it, but I do them quite often, or at least come very close.

There's a "cheat" too. Recently I got 4kg of grain into 10.5L in a 15L pot (there was about 1cm of pot rim showing). :beerbang: I got 1.075 IIRC after sparge in 10L. I whacked in 1kg of home made candy sugar to dissolve at the end of the boil.

You can do "all grain" brews with a 15L pot if you stretch the definition a little.

 

[killspice]

Well, just past the half way mark of my boil, and everything went pretty well.

First issue was holding temp. My pot (covered with a blanket) lost 1.5deg in the first half hour (not too bad), but at about 45m it had dropped 3, so I boosted the heat to get it back to 64. Ended on about 62. I think i'll put the burner on slowly, more regularly, next time.

I also found out just how small my second pot was, as I had to cut back on the sparge size considerably (was 5L, but even half that was too much to fit the bag). In the end I dunked a couple of times, then squeezed the bag out, and left it at that. In future I will just mash out, and squeeze the bag I think.

My pre-boil gravity was ~1030 (it may be a little higher, the sample was still slightly above room temp when i took it, but not sure exactly how high as my thermometer doesn't fit my testing flask. It should have been 1039, based on the boil volume of 18l (I only had ~14l), so my efficiency was way out, but I am sure that was due to the crap sparge and loss of a tiny bit of the initial sparge liquid.

The bag just fits the pot, but i think the bag was pulling away from the edges a little bit due to the small grain payload which may have also affected my efficiency. I think the bag would hold double that, but i'm not sure if it'll hold a full 4-6kg of grain.

My final concern is the amount of material in the wort, it seems there is a ton (throughout the entire wort) of speckles, like a very fine sand. I assume this is because of a fine crush (and that i have wheat malt) and my bag is not too coarse.

Anyways, last hop addition (and ldme) just went in, i better start filling my tub with ice for chilling. I'll update with my og and see if i can work out my efficiency.

 

[RdeVjun]

Mate, just use a plastic bucket for the sparge! Start boiling the (domestic) kettle before the mash is finished, tip the kettles- full into the sparge bucket until you've got enough (about 5 or 6 litres in your case), temperature is not critical although it can be adjusted with some cold, but the step is if efficiency is a concern. If you're aiming for a full- sized batch and the stockpot isn't almost full of something over 1.050 at the start of the boil then there's probably something amiss, either with the grain mass or the conversion process.
(Oh shit, I nearly mentioned plastic and boiling in the same sentence. Phew... )

Non- homogeneous temperature could be one thing to consider as well, it can be all over the place in both BIAB and eskies, particularly at the start, but more layers of insulation will help to minimise losses. but, I'd dress your mash tun up in as many layers/ outfits as you can, I always think winter and use a simple woolen jersey plus a thick sort of Paddington Bear coat from the local Op Shop, but mainly because I think mashing should look dignified and smart! This gives me 3.5 degC loss in about the same number of hours, while efficiency doesn't suffer from a longer mash either. Also, I'd recommend just leaving the lid and insulation on and don't be stirring it too much, just once or twice is plenty thoughout the whole process, whereas opening it up frequently to have a wee deek and giving it a stir is only wasting the precious thermal store.

Just on the break in the wort, it is generally not a huge concern, whirlfloc will take care of most of it sufficiently, although I often forget it without suffering catastrophic results, while much that remains eventually just ends up on the bottom of the cube or fermenter.

Righto, good on you for having a chop at it, so its onward and upward! :beer:

 

[killspice]

Well, my efficiency wasn't as bad as I thought. Cooled to ~22deg, topped up to 18L, my OG was 1049, just above beersmiths estimated 1046. This could be due to the amount of sediment in the test flask though (I let it settle, but there was still some in suspension when i measured), so it might be a bit lower than that.

For my next batch i'll be ordering some whirlfloc, so I'll give it a go and see. However I think i need a better solution to moving from chilled pot to my fermenter to try keep all the crap out. I just tipped it in this time to aerate it, i think next time i'll siphon but give it a bit of a drop to aerate it.

I pitched at ~22deg (same temp as my s-23 starter) and in the fridge set at 12deg now, so should be at the right temp in the next 12 hours.

Now we play the waiting game (damn lagers). I really should have brewed an ale so I didn't have to lager it.

 

[Nick JD]

These two things are handy.

http://www.grainandgrape.com.au/articles_o..._StrikeTemp.htm

Scroll down to the strike temp calculator.

And I use this to calculate the SG of my wort just before boil.

http://leebrewery.com/beermath.htm

The left hand side box has a gravity converter for temperature. Note that it's in farenheit.

I cover my pot with four big towels (and never open the lid!). I've found that turning the heat on during the boil is unnecessary (and can overheat the bottom while leaving the top too cool killing efficiency if you degrade the enzymes) - and that it's important (for me with an electric burner) to go 2 degrees C under my optimal strike temp because the residual heat in the electric element keeps rising the pots temperature a little after you've turned it off and mashed in.

If I mash in at 66C, I'm out at 63C in 1 hour. That's about perfect for body/alc/maltiness for me.

EDIT: I see you have beersmith!

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Well, my efficiency wasn't as bad as I thought. Cooled to ~22deg, topped up to 18L, my OG was 1049, just above beersmiths estimated 1046. This could be due to the amount of sediment in the test flask though (I let it settle, but there was still some in suspension when i measured), so it might be a bit lower than that.

For my next batch i'll be ordering some whirlfloc, so I'll give it a go and see. However I think i need a better solution to moving from chilled pot to my fermenter to try keep all the crap out. I just tipped it in this time to aerate it, i think next time i'll siphon but give it a bit of a drop to aerate it.

I pitched at ~22deg (same temp as my s-23 starter) and in the fridge set at 12deg now, so should be at the right temp in the next 12 hours.

Now we play the waiting game (damn lagers). I really should have brewed an ale so I didn't have to lager it.

Sediment in suspension makes absolutely no difference to the reading of your hydrometer, no more than a gram of sand or a ball bearing in the bottom of the tube would. It makes a small difference in a refractometer.. it makes the line a little fuzzy so its harder to read, but thats it.

All that happened is you got a little better efficiency than your target.. or maybe a little lower volume of slightly stronger beer. No biggie - for a first go I would say that that is close enough to call it hitting your targets.

 

[killspice]

I just did a hydro check and it is currently at 1012, so it has gone a lot faster than I expected. Beersmith estimated a 1012 FG, but there still seems to be a bit of krausen, so it looks like it's going to be a bit lower than that.

There was still a fair amount of sediment in the test sample, as well as a lot of cloudiness, even after discarding the first drawings, but i am not particularly concerned. I plan on racking this weekend for a 3-4 week lager, or as long as my reserves last which should help clear it a bit more. I would have been racking next week, but the speed of fermentation is making me think to bring it forward.

The taste was excellent, I am not very experienced with describing beers (or experienced at tasting beer either), but i'll give it a go. It was a light taste with a nice malt flavour and a hint of what I would describe as a lemon/citrus characteristic. It was not bitter (I actually upped the original recipe to 40g saaz @ 60m to give it about 30 ibu on the advice from this thread, and I'm glad I did) you could definitely taste the malt, but it doesn't taste like it is actually sweet. Since I kind of threw the recipe together I can't comment on what it should taste like, but I can say I like it.

I am really looking forward to this one, and I can safely say it is much better than any K&K lager i've brewed.

If my next brew is half as good I will be happy, but since it will likely be AG over a partial I am hoping it will be even better (though in a completely different category).

 

[O'Henry]

At a guess, the drop in temperature during the mash may be the reason for the lower FG. I mashed badly in an oversize eski once and it dropped way low for what I wanted. I too hit 62C and was aiming for 68/69. But my beer was much weaker than this one, so it was well obvious as there was really no body what so ever. Basically a Carlton Draft Clone...