Small Batches for Recipe Tweaking

[vaanderal]

Morning lads,

I am toying with the idea of doing small batches for recipe tweaking. Have a few questions am hoping the experienced can answer.

Essentially the reason is that i have a bunch of recipe ideas i want to play with, but i dont drink enough beer to warrant full batch sizes of something that might not be much good. Also would like to do some experimental brews to test out certain ingredients

- What is the smallest batch size you'd want to use? Am thinking 5L
- What fermenters do you use for smaller batches?
- Have you had any issues scaling a successful small batch to a larger batch? Taste differences, etc?
- Do certain beer styles suffer from small batches? E.g. i was considering a Vienna lager. Although i can think of no reason it would suffer from a small batch (providing adequate yeast pitched and temp controlled.

Thanks in advance,

Ben

 

[Leyther]

5L Demijohn (Carboy) works as a fermentor, tend to be glass however you could also use a 5L water container, wont really matter.

My only experience with a 5L was a disaster, my Mrs bought me a kit from Brewsmith which included the glass fermentor, stop, etc. Was supposed to be a hoppy ale but I ended up with something that tasted disgusting with very strong alchohol (bad whiskey). I put it down to bad yeast but the temps they recomended fermenting where high for most ale yeasts I use. I've never done one since but I have it in my mind to do a Double IPA in it, something I'm not going to have as a session beer.

If your only doing 5L then your standard yeast packet is probably too much so you might need to use a 1/4 packet or you may overpitch and have consequences.

 

[technobabble66]

You can also use 2 or 3L juice bottles. Just rinse-soak-rinse them to get rid of any juice flavour/aroma and you've got a free mini-FV.
Make ~1.5L for a 2L container. That gives enough for 3-4 stubbies, so you can try one at 2 weeks, 6 weeks, and 12 weeks (I find malt driven beers can take ~3 months to smooth out to their best, esp darker ones).
Should give you a good sample of the recipes, with very minimal ingredients/effort.

 

[vaanderal]

Measured it all up and looks like i can fit 2 of these guys in my fermentation fridge:

https://www.bunnings.com.au/icon-plastics-10l-blue-tint-camper-carrier-with-tap_p3240535

Perfect size for what i'm after

 

[Meddo]

I've done a few split batches in four of those 10L bottles. Split a single 28-30L batch of wort to no-chill about 7L in each fairly quickly and ferment in the cube with different cube and dry hops, wind up with ~6L from each in the keg/bottle. Got a few brews planned to try different yeasts in them rather than hops.

 

[kevo]

I used to do 5L batches in demijohns in the kitchen of a two bedroom unit, then ferment and bottle in the downstairs garage.

The intention was to tweak and then scale up - but the time taken to brew 5L wasn't that different to the time needed to brew 10L and then 20L. Nor were the equipment or fermentation space and equipment requirements terribly different.

I didn't keg at the time so bottling was quicker than bottling a bigger batch. But looking back at all that time and effort for 10, maybe 12 stubbies was frustrating.

Soooo - my demijohns now house meads when I get the inclination or collect dust in the garage.

Unless you're serious about tweaking and perfecting a recipe, I'd suggest you stick to larger batches and make the most of your time. You'll invest a similar amount of time for far less return with small batches.

My 2c

Kev

 

[good4whatAlesU]

A case of beer is about 8 litres, so I reckon that's not a bad size to go for. I use the little 9.5 litre kegs so I'm getting close to 30 middies out of a batch which is enough to make the time brewing worthwhile.

Differences between small brew and big brew I've noticed is that you can get the boil going pretty quick and cooling the wort is a bit easier too. On the flip-side you do probably lose a higher % volume in the boil off and trub/ fermentation stages you lose quite a bit too.

Edit: Brew/boil/ferment - for $20 a SSteel stock pot from big W can do it all, cheap as chips and with the smallish volume you can do it on the stovetop.

 

[Danscraftbeer]

- Have you had any issues scaling a successful small batch to a larger batch? Taste differences, etc?

Yes. This is something that can be very significant on variances of end results. It goes with cooking as well.
The larger the batch the better results basically. The larger it is the more the whole flavour combination gets rounded off and better blended.
The smaller the batch the more vulnerable it is to be compromised by variances in the entire process.
Small batches versus larger batches could be as much labour and effort as well.
As for limiting personal consumption I'd give it away if people just gave me a clean keg to fill.
Lazy bastards want it bottled for them as well.....In Their Dreams!

 

[malt junkie]

Edit: Brew/boil/ferment - for $20 a SSteel stock pot from big W can do it all, cheap as chips and with the smallish volume you can do it on the stovetop.

I do like this ethos, just note when scaling to your larger equipment, method and batch size do have an impact on flavours particularly hop utilisation( maybe 1-3%).

 

[good4whatAlesU]

Yes if the boil off percent is higher it's going to concentrate things a bit.

Also high area contact with heat source you need to be careful not to scorch things.

An advantage of small size batches it teaches you to measure things quite carefully, whereas I think the big volume brewers have a bit more wriggle room.

 

[NigelP]

I have done 6 batches into the 5 Litre Demijohns and have had good results.
I really like seeing the beer ferment too. The kids think it is better to watch than the fish tank.

I use an 8 litre stock pot for the mash (the whole thing fits perfectly into a standard esky during the mash) and a 12 litre for the boil.

However like Kevo I have decided it isn't worth all the effort for 12 to 13 stubbies.
My plan was to make small batches to refine and test, but once I made a good batch all that work basically went in two sessions. It's no fun making good beer if you can't share it too.

I have just scaled up to BIAB and found my recipe didn't scale well. I have had much more boil off than expected and my efficiency with BIAB is way better so my recipe needs tweaking.

Other things I learn't were:

- Use a refractometer instead of a hydrometer so you waste less when measuring. I basically lost a full stubbie getting my readings
- Get a mini siphon, but be aware that not all Demijohn have the same size neck opening. I bought a mini siphon that I had to shave a few mm off to fit in the opening
- I pitched half a pack of the 11.5 gram dry yeast and it worked ok for me. I kept the rest in the fridge for a week and it worked ok too
- Not to fill much more than 4.3 litres. I had some bubbling up into the bung when I went up to 4.5 litres and was lucky not to make a big mess

 

[vaanderal]

Cheers for the replies all.

In response to the size:effort ratio concerns, essentially my reasoning for smaller batches is i simply don't drink fast enough compared to the ideas i have in my head. Am also planning to brew a great deal of beers for an event coming up mid way next year, so i'm looking to fast track my recipe tweaking. Smaller batches means my equipment frees up quicker, meaning more iterations of potential recipe improvements.

Long winded to do a full brew day for a half batch but i'm not too worried.

 

[Lionman]

I was speaking to a mate who is brewery manager at a large independent craft brewery and asked him about development.

I was surprised to find that they don't do any small batches or trial batches. They go from recipe design on paper straight to full production run (50hL I think).

He made a comment along the lines of every batch being a trial batch and that's what makes it craft brewing.

I guess pros have more experience which helps. Also, recipes don't always scale linearly so it's not always as valuable as it seems to do small batches.


I can't be bothered personally with brewing small (less than a cornie) amounts. I prefer to do a decent amount and if it isn't great, I drink it to learn. If you do something stupid, drinking 20l of the result will teach you not to do that again. :lol:

 

[Stouter]

This worries me now. I was looking at doing some small batch experiments based around dark grains, and either steeping or using as a late mash addition.
My results might not be as indicative as I first thought.

 

[good4whatAlesU]

I was speaking to a mate who is brewery manager at a large independent craft brewery and asked him about development.

I was surprised to find that they don't do any small batches or trial batches. They go from recipe design on paper straight to full production run (50hL I think).

He made a comment along the lines of every batch being a trial batch and that's what makes it craft brewing.

I guess pros have more experience which helps. Also, recipes don't always scale linearly so it's not always as valuable as it seems to do small batches.


I can't be bothered personally with brewing small (less than a cornie) amounts. I prefer to do a decent amount and if it isn't great, I drink it to learn. If you do something stupid, drinking 20l of the result will teach you not to do that again. :lol:

Depends how much you drink I suppose. After a case of something (8 Litres) I quite like to try something else.

5000 Litres of an experiment may be alright for a big brewer to get rid of as a 'novelty' but for the rest of us......

 

[Lionman]

This worries me now. I was looking at doing some small batch experiments based around dark grains, and either steeping or using as a late mash addition.
My results might not be as indicative as I first thought.

Just experiment, don't beer afraid. The worst thing that can happen is that you will make beer.

You will probably find that most things have been tried before, so you can find some information bout how to do what your thinking of doing or what others experience has shown. If not base your method on an existing similar method.

If you want to experiment with dark grains, start with a recipe that you know works and add a modest amount of steeped grains. You might not get the result you were looking for but you will get beer and you can adjust the next batch to your taste.

Depends how much you drink I suppose. After a case of something (8 Litres) I quite like to try something else.

5000 Litres of an experiment may be alright for a big brewer to get rid of as a 'novelty' but for the rest of us......

It also depends on how impatient you are. Do you want to perfect that recipe as quickly as possible or take your time, build on experience and improve your process? You can have more than one batch packaged at once, so even if it's not something you will want to drink all the time, I find "meh" batches are fine for filling in the gaps.

 

[vaanderal]

The thing I love most about home brew is the experimentation side of things. Got an idea in my head, did a bit of research, planned it all out and executed.

My results of said experimentation are thus:

I will not be small batch brewing again

I thought it wouldn't matter too much, but when you boil it right down it's nearly the same amount of effort to make half the end result.

I had a couple of reasons for wanting to try small batches:

- My fermentation chamber is quite small, so i would be able to ferment two beers at once with smaller batches. I have since decided to make the switch to fermenting in cornies, of which i can fit two in my chamber.
- I do not drink as much beer as i should. Simply just going to buy more bottles and brew more beer for aging. The mrs is up me already about having too many bottles though so will have to find a new hiding place
- I thought the extra effort wouldn't worry me. It does. It's an identical amount of cleaning, only bit where time is saved is heating up brewing liquor, of which time saved is negligible.
- Greater variety of beers. Yes, you can churn out more different beers more often, but what about if you make a great recipe by mistake? What about if you make a great recipe but want to see how it ages over long periods? If you're only making 12 or so 750ml you'll only be able to sample a small number of times. Send one to comp? etc, etc.

I tried it, wasn't for me, back to full batches.

 

[good4whatAlesU]

Sound logic there vaanderal. I reckon a carton is about the minimum worth doing, less than that is a lot of effort for not very much beer.

 

[Hpal]

I produce 10L (a carton) in a big W pot which I've turned into an electric kettle with a ball valve on the side and etched litre markings. It's a great size for test batches. I no-chill in a 10L blue cube from bunnings, its a really great compact and portable little set-up. Especially if you wanted to bring it to someone's place for a brew day.

 

[capsicum]

Yeah I've done a few stovetop BIABs and fermented in an old 5L giant scotch bottle I have, but the reason was more that my ferment fridge was full and I really felt like brewing. I'm reasonably confident in my ability and system that if I make a 20L batch it's not going to be so bad I'd throw it out so I don't see the need to trial on a smaller scale.

That said, I did brew my first sour on small scale first beacuse I didn't have that confidence level.