Smack Pak Swellings

[sathid]

it was a kit beer with a can of LME a kg of DME and some caramalt steeped.

It was pitched a bit high (27-28 degrees) which was probably the problem.

Also had no foaming from the hydrated yeast when I stirred in some malt extract.

 

[Stuster]

Right. It makes sense that you got lower attenuation then. Have fun with the AG brew today.

 

[Screwtop]

No need for this step, Screwtop. Pitching cold from the fridge is fine.

There is no way I would do it.

 

[Stuster]

There is no way I would do it.

Why? Apparently, many commercial breweries pitch this way. It even suggests doing this on a Wyeast pack (point 3).

Edit: Read this FAQ on it as well if you are dubious.

 

[PistolPatch]

Alas! No expert in this thread has answered my question so it seems that all who contemplate using liquid yeast are doomed to an expensive or steep and time-consuming learning curve.

So far this thread has offered that you spend $16 per brew on liquid yeast (and that even doing this there are sprecifications - lol) or that you do starters (which take time and a wading through of conflicting advice) or that you just stick to your dried yeast.

So, let's face it, this thread is not really the best ad for those contemplating liquid yeast. So far it just provides an outlet to show off technical knowledge. This is pretty unhelpful to newbees to liquid yeast which fatgodzila, unless I have read the thread wrong, is. (Happy to be in the same boat FG )

I can't see any logical reason why my last suggestion should not work well and be an appropriate step into liquid yeasts. (There must be heaps of brewers doing this already.)

Anyway, I'm going to do it and I have no doubt it will work well and that I'll get at least 6 brews out of a pack. I will, of course, let you know if I don't. (Always happy to post my failures.)

Always nice to have a new brewing subject to get bewildered on! There's been a little sensible advice here, certainly some bad advice and some other advice that I'm not sure of though I am sure that it is irrelevant/unhelpful/ and/or confusing to fatgodzilla, myself and any others contemplating or starting to use liquid yeast.

Be great if someone posted some more helpful info for newbees to liquid yeast here.

Pat

 

[newguy]

Pat,

Here's my complete history with wyeast smack packs.

- My first pack was purchased over 10 years ago when the packs were small (50ml). It was pitched directly into ~20l of ~1.050 wort. The lag time was about 24h, but the beer turned out fine. I remember that this pack wasn't that fresh (~6 months old).
- I immediately switched to using starters because I didn't like having to wait for the pack to swell before I could brew. As long as the starter was going, I could brew.
- I reused these starters/packs 3 times. I'd pitch almost the entire starter (750ml back then), and then fill the starter jar with ~350ml of cooled wort from that batch. I'd allow that to completely ferment, then bottle it and store it in the fridge. I'd split the yeast 3 times using this method. The longest I stored one of these bottles was ~12 months and it worked fine. Lag times at this point in my brewing "career" were 6-12 hours.
- When I switched to 10 gallon batches, I started reusing the yeast cake which is just way easier than what I did before. At this time I was pitching larger starters because I had acquired a 2l erlenmeyer flask. Ales: 1.2l starter, lagers: 1.6l starter, split evenly between the 2 carboys (I ferment in glass). I reuse the yeast cake 3 times max. The lag time with the first use is still 6-12 hours, but for subsequent batches is typically <2 hours.
- I never separate the sediment from the liquid in my starters. I always pitch the whole works.

My starters are fed with pint jars of pre-prepared wort. 1 jar to begin, and 2 jars once it takes off. I mix 8 cups water, 1 cup DME, and 1.25 tsp of yeast nutrient, then split that into five one pint sealers. I then pressure cook these jars for 15 minutes, and put them aside until I need to make a starter. I've stored these jars for over 12 months with no infections/issues. It's easy to prepare starters when the wort is pre-prepared. I only prepare 5 jars at a time because I can't fit more in my pressure cooker.

The oldest pack I've ever used was over 5 years old, and it eventually swelled up just fine. The beer it made was fine as well. I'm currently on the 2nd pitching/reuse of a 1007 German ale which was dated July 2004. The beer is fine, as a matter of fact the Northern German Alt I made with the 1st pitching is one of the best beers I've ever made.

The only major change I've recently made (1 week ago actually) is that I now have an oxygenation system (O2 tank & airstone). I never used to oxygenate other than shaking the starter & carboys. I knew that oxygen made a difference, but I didn't know how dramatic it was. Until a friend & I brewed a beer for our club on my system and he brought over his oxygen system. I honestly placed the order for my oxygen system within an hour of pitching the yeast for this batch. I've NEVER seen yeast take off like that before. Now I can probably get away with slightly smaller starters since the oxygen will help to make up the difference.

I hope this information helps to answer your questions.

 

[Stuster]

PP, no need to get annoyed. Your question was buried in a post and nobody happened to pick up on it. The last few posts I've been giving some specific answers to questions sathid had. Not helpful to you maybe, but not useless to sathid (I hope, anyway ).

To answer your question, there's definitely nothing wrong with re-using liquid yeast cakes (why would they be any different to dry yeast cakes? in fact, often people worry more about using dry yeast cakes). I don't think there'd be that many people on this board who'd use a new smack pack for each batch.

My normal method is to make a 15L batch of 1040 OG, something light which I can just pitch a pack straight into. If the pack's a bit older, I'll do a starter, but I try to be as lazy as possible. When that batch is finished, I rack off the yeast cake, keep some yeast in jars in the fridge, and use part of the slurry for the next batch. I'll then use that line for a couple of batches, switching over to the yeast saved in the fridge after a couple of generations. Then a couple of generations with each saved batch of yeast. If that yeast's been in the fridge for more than two or three weeks, I'll do a starter with it before using it.

Hope that's more what you were after.

 

[Ross]

PP,

No problem reusing your slurry at all, whether it be dried or liquid, but unless you are going to use within a few days you are better off washing it. Have a read up on Chillers excellent thread on yeast farming. If you use the method of washing dried yeast you posted in a recent thread, I'm afraid you will continue to have problems.

Good luck & cheers...

Ross

 

[hughman666]

this is how i do it:

** making the starter **

1. boil up 1L of water on the stove
2. add 100g of light dry extract
3. mix in and boil for approx 2-3 mins
4. pour into 2L flagon "a"
5. put on lid/bung/airlock combo
6. add boiled water to airlock
7. stick in fridge until approx 15-25c
8. take out of fridge and add yeast
9. leave for 2-3 days until all airlock activity stops. you should see a
healthy bit of yeast on the bottom
10. stick in fridge overnight
11. the yeast should have solidified somewhat. pour off 90% of the wort
from the top

** stepping up the starter **

12. repeat steps 1 -> 7 but pour the boiled wort into flagon "b" so as not to burn the
starter
13. pour the contents of flagon "a" into flagon "b".
14. repeat steps 9 & 10.

it's not really very time consuming and you then have the slurry at the end which can be stored/re-used etc

cheers

 

[braufrau]

this is how i do it:

** making the starter **

1. boil up 1L of water on the stove
2. add 100g of light dry extract
3. mix in and boil for approx 2-3 mins
4. pour into 2L flagon "a"
5. put on lid/bung/airlock combo
6. add boiled water to airlock
7. stick in fridge until approx 15-25c
8. take out of fridge and add yeast
9. leave for 2-3 days until all airlock activity stops. you should see a
healthy bit of yeast on the bottom
10. stick in fridge overnight
11. the yeast should have solidified somewhat. pour off 90% of the wort
from the top

** stepping up the starter **

12. repeat steps 1 -> 7 but pour the boiled wort into flagon "b" so as not to burn the
starter
13. pour the contents of flagon "a" into flagon "b".
14. repeat steps 9 & 10.

it's not really very time consuming and you then have the slurry at the end which can be stored/re-used etc

cheers

yep. same here except I use an ice bath to cool the wort.
Its just the same as making beer PP, only easier! Starter is unhopped beer.
Beer is hopped starter.

BTW - after I've made my starter I keep back 100ml in a sanitised jar and store it in the fridge.
I figure there's less risk of infection or mutation by saving the starter rather then trub.
Is there some drawback I should be aware of?

 

[Stuster]

No drawback, BF. Just make sure you minimise the amount of air above the wort, and make sure it's finished fermenting before you put it in the fridge. Many yeasts can keep on fermenting slowly in the fridge, which could mean you end up with the same issues your Belgian brewing boss had.

 

[Screwtop]

Why? Apparently, many commercial breweries pitch this way. It even suggests doing this on a Wyeast pack (point 3).

Edit: Read this FAQ on it as well if you are dubious.

Sorry if you misunderstood Stuster, I wouldn't do it, still there are plenty of texts regarding the subject and all need to be understood in the context of the application/research.
Stuck Fermentation

and Mild temperature shock alters the transcription of a discrete class of Saccharomyces cerevisiae genes

But from experience only I wouldn't do it

 

[kook]

Alas! No expert in this thread has answered my question so it seems that all who contemplate using liquid yeast are doomed to an expensive or steep and time-consuming learning curve.

So far this thread has offered that you spend $16 per brew on liquid yeast (and that even doing this there are sprecifications - lol) or that you do starters (which take time and a wading through of conflicting advice) or that you just stick to your dried yeast.

So, let's face it, this thread is not really the best ad for those contemplating liquid yeast. So far it just provides an outlet to show off technical knowledge. This is pretty unhelpful to newbees to liquid yeast which fatgodzila, unless I have read the thread wrong, is. (Happy to be in the same boat FG )

I can't see any logical reason why my last suggestion should not work well and be an appropriate step into liquid yeasts. (There must be heaps of brewers doing this already.)

Anyway, I'm going to do it and I have no doubt it will work well and that I'll get at least 6 brews out of a pack. I will, of course, let you know if I don't. (Always happy to post my failures.)

Always nice to have a new brewing subject to get bewildered on! There's been a little sensible advice here, certainly some bad advice and some other advice that I'm not sure of though I am sure that it is irrelevant/unhelpful/ and/or confusing to fatgodzilla, myself and any others contemplating or starting to use liquid yeast.

Be great if someone posted some more helpful info for newbees to liquid yeast here.

Pat

Pat, yes you can collect and repitch liquid yeast. Theres even a thread airlocked on it above (Yeast Farming) by chiller.

The problems you face though are mutation and contamination, as every time you pitch another slurry you are increasing the percentage of mutated yeast cells and wild yeast / bacterial cells.

I'd like to know which information is "bewildering" though. This is a forum on brewing, everyone has spoken about something related to the use of WYeast, or tried to assist the OP with useful information.

Liquid yeast is not complicated, and nor are the ideas thrown around in this thread. Sure, everyone has a slightly different way of doing a starter, but everyone has a slightly different way of brewing too! Some do it in a bag, some in an esky, some in a pumpkin, some boil for 90 mins, some for 60, etc etc.

Getting hostile towards fellow brewers isn't going to help anything though.

 

[Stuster]

No, I understood it was your choice not to do it, Screwtop. Just wondering why it was that you chose not to. Even though I think those refs I linked to are sound, it's always good to get more information from different brewers. I realise this is not exactly orthodox according to what's written in a number of books, and I'm certainly careful not to shock yeast by going from warm to cold. What experiences did you have that have turned you off pitching cold yeast to warm wort?

 

[braufrau]

Getting hostile towards fellow brewers isn't going to help anything though.

I don't think PP was being hostile. Look how happy he is! And he's got a winky, face and
a lol in his post.




Anyway Pat, here's what to do!

1. Fish around in the local organic cafe's rubbish bin to find a 2l apple juice flagon. Sanitise it.
2. Smack pack! Keep it warm for about 8 hours.
3. Dissolve 50g of DME in in 500ml of boiling water and microwave for about 3mins
4. Pour this (through a santised funnel) into your flagon. Cool in an ice bath.
5. Add yeast from starter pack.
6. Leave for 2-3 days with the lid on loosely. Give it a shake whenever you pass by.
7. Dissolve 100g of DME in in 1l of boiling water and microwave for about 3mins
8. Cool in an ice bath and add to the 500ml starter.
9. Leave for 2-3 days with the lid on loosely. Give it a shake whenever you pass by.
10. On brew day, decant 100ml into a sanitised jar for 'ron. Pour the rest into your wort.

Repeast steps 2-10 whenever you want to use that yeast.

Easy peasy!

 

[kook]

I don't think PP was being hostile. Look how happy he is! And he's got a winky, face and
a lol in his post.

Maybe I've misinterpreted it, but telling the members of the site who have tried to help out in the thread that they are bewildering everyone and simply using AHB as an outlet to "show off" is pretty easy to interpret as hostile B)

 

[Stuster]

Braufrau, I think you're making life too difficult for yourself with that starter regime. From all I've read, there's no need to step up a full smack pack into only 500ml of wort. There is so much yeast in a pack that you won't really be getting much yeast growth in such a small volume (totally different if you are stepping up from a smaller amount of yeast). According to several sources I've read, you can pitch a smack pack straight into 2L of wort, the yeast growth will mostly be done in 12-18 hours, then pitch the starter at high krausen. Have a look at Jamil's FAQ for the full scoop.

 

[braufrau]

Braufrau, I think you're making life too difficult for yourself with that starter regime. From all I've read, there's no need to step up a full smack pack into only 500ml of wort. There is so much yeast in a pack that you won't really be getting much yeast growth in such a small volume (totally different if you are stepping up from a smaller amount of yeast). According to several sources I've read, you can pitch a smack pack straight into 2L of wort, the yeast growth will mostly be done in 12-18 hours, then pitch the starter at high krausen. Have a look at Jamil's FAQ for the full scoop.

yeah you're right. If its enough to pitch for a whole brew, its enough to pitch for a 2l starter.
What I wrote is really the strategy for culturing from a bottle of coopers, or from my 100ml cultures in the fridge.
But for the first go from the smackpack, just jump straight to the 2l. Even easier!

 

[sathid]

Thats good news. I pitched to a 2L starter yesterday arvo Airlock is bubbling along quite nicely.

 

[amita]

this is my first starter, whyeast Belgian Wit,

1 packet( smacked for 8 hours, fully swelled) in sanitised jar on top of cooled 1,5 liter wort made of 200 grams of liquid wheat malt,pls note the gladwrap instead of airlock,seemed to work fine.

fermeted out,half went in the fermenter other half used in a new starter and split that up into stubbies for later use.
worked like a rocket, krausen was up next morning,stubbies happy in the fridge with a healthy layer of yeast.

cheers amita