Smack Pak Swellings

[beersom]

Why cant i just pitch the yeast once its swelled? According to wyeast, one activator package does 5 gallons of standard wort (SG 1.034 - 1.060) which is ~19L. I do 20L batches so i figure as long as i aerate the wort sufficiently alls good....... :huh:

As long as your yeast is fresh that method is more than fine.

I would only use a starter if I was going to make wort more than 1.065 (20 - 25 lt batch) or if making a lager.

 

[drsmurto]

It would depend on what you make your wort from. If i am making a lager i make a starter and do this by pouring of 5L of wort, chilling down to 12 and pitching the pack. Once at high krausen i dump the whole thing back into the rest of the wort.

 

[Stuster]

It really depends, BF. You definitely want to pitch only the yeast when you are doing a lager when you're making huge starters, and doing them at warmer temps than you're going to ferment at. You might also do it if you are doing any light beer, where you don't want any esters there may be in the starter wort. If you are going to do this, let the starter ferment out totally, pop it in the fridge overnight or longer, and pour off the wort from on top of the yeast that should have settled to the bottom.

If you are doing a reasonable size starter for a reasonably tasty beer, pitching the lot is fine.

 

[braufrau]

Hmmm.. but isn't the most viable yeast the stuff floating in the wort and not the poor old stuff sinking to the bottom?

That aside I just had a play with MrMalty's calculator and got this for a tripel with one month old yeast.

2 packs of yeast and 5 litres of starter??? Puhleeease!

 

[Screwtop]

Hmmm.. but isn't the most viable yeast the stuff floating in the wort and not the poor old stuff sinking to the bottom?

That aside I just had a play with MrMalty's calculator and got this for a tripel with one month old yeast.

2 packs of yeast and 5 litres of starter??? Puhleeease!

I would expect that a lot of yeast would be required for a beer of that gravity. Use the dried yeast tab and see how much dried yeast would be required, would that amount surprise you, probably not, but when it comes to liquid yeast we seem to have this mindset that there will be enough in the pack, probably due to so many posts regarding splitting the packs and propagating the splits. Zoom up the starter volume bar and you'll see less yeast is required if you plan on making a larger starter, play with the thing, a lot of experience and advice from Wyeast and White labs went into the design of the calculator.

BF, just personal preference, but I don't want 2L of beer made from DME in any recipe that I've spent time designing the malt bill for, otherwise i'm wasting my time. I simple pop the starter flask/container into the fridge overnight after fermentation has ceased to drop the yeast out, then pour off most of the beer, swirl the remainder to bring the dormant yeast into suspension, then put it into the fermentation fridge for a couple of hours alongside the wort ready for pitching. Once attemporated I pitch the yeast into the wort.

Not advocating that anyone should do what I do, what I post is based upon what experience has taught me. Do whatever you want, learn from your experience and post the results.

 

[braufrau]

I would expect that a lot of yeast would be required for a beer of that gravity. <snip>

BF, just personal preference, but I don't want 2L of beer made from DME in any recipe that I've spent time designing the malt bill for<snip>
Not advocating that anyone should do what I do, what I post is based upon what experience has taught me. Do whatever you want, learn from your experience and post the results.

Well I've made a couple of beers with that gravity and they've fermented like rockets. Actually one climbed out of airlock and put green goop
all over the box I keep the fermenter in. That was with one packet cultured in a 1.5l starter.

Your point about 2l ofplain beer added to your wort is well taken. I do conentrated boils for partials so I add extract anyway and water. If I ever
do AG I'll be sure not to add plain beer to it.

 

[Screwtop]

Well I've made a couple of beers with that gravity and they've fermented like rockets. Actually one climbed out of airlock and put green goop
all over the box I keep the fermenter in. That was with one packet cultured in a 1.5l starter.

Your point about 2l ofplain beer added to your wort is well taken. I do conentrated boils for partials so I add extract anyway and water. If I ever
do AG I'll be sure not to add plain beer to it.

BF yeast stress is a lot less evident in some styles and in big beers. Even desirable in some styles. Often high alcohol tolerant yeasts will go ape in wort with low alcohol until the ABV starts to build. I used to buy out of date packs, split them into five and then do a 500ml, 1L, 1.5L, 2L starter step from a splitg with great success in some styles. Started to wonder why beers were not as good as they could be in lighter styles when brewing for comps. After lots of trial and error without success, I asked some commercial brewers for advice, then began emailing manufacturers and some published and successful home brewers for advice. Soon found that yeast viability and pitching rates were much more important than previous experience would have led me to believe. The level of krausen produced is often more a result of yeast viability/health than an indication of pitching rate. Hope you skimmed off the green poop for reuse :lol:

Screrwy

 

[PistolPatch]

I have recently experienced probs with dried US-56. It seems now to take well over a month to come good on recipes that were delightful within a week. (This problem includes the branded Fermentis sachets.)

For the above reason I have lost confidence in the sacheted 56 and have bought the liquid. I have pitched 5 packets in the last month of either the 56 or kolsch and all have taken off fine. (3 packs swelled hard within 10 hours and the other two were 2/3rds swollen after smacking 6hrs prior to pitch.)

At my level of expertise (and time availability,) making starters is out of the question. I'm hoping that fatgodzilla may be in the same boat as me.

I'm hoping to just keep harvesting the yeast cake. No fancy method. This worked well for about 9 months on the dried yeast. Is there any reason I shouldn't expect the same result with the liquid?

I'm hoping so because jumping from dried yeast to doing starters or splitting liquid yeasts is a big jump and I'd prefer not to go there.

Cheers,
Pat

 

[newguy]

BF,

Those starter sizes from the calculator are probably correct, but there is a way around this problem. Plan 2 or 3 Belgian styles leading up to the tripel you want, and just reuse the yeast cake. For instance, start with a low gravity beer, say a Belgian pale ale, then step it up with a slightly stronger beer, say a Belgian blonde, then do your tripel. By the time you get around to the tripel, you'll have plenty of yeast.

Saves money too.

 

[Screwtop]

BF,

Those starter sizes from the calculator are probably correct, but there is a way around this problem. Plan 2 or 3 Belgian styles leading up to the tripel you want, and just reuse the yeast cake. For instance, start with a low gravity beer, say a Belgian pale ale, then step it up with a slightly stronger beer, say a Belgian blonde, then do your tripel. By the time you get around to the tripel, you'll have plenty of yeast.

Saves money too.

SPOT ON ADVICE!

 

[Fatgodzilla]

At my level of expertise (and time availability,) making starters is out of the question. I'm hoping that fatgodzilla may be in the same boat as me.

I'm hoping to just keep harvesting the yeast cake. No fancy method. This worked well for about 9 months on the dried yeast. Is there any reason I shouldn't expect the same result with the liquid?

If were in the same boat Pat, it would probably sink. :lol:

I hope lots of people have read this thread and I'm glad I asked the question. Good arguments people and I'm sure that everyone will learn a bit from it.

Just to finsih my bit. as said both my American Ale II (washed and reused twice since) and the Californian Lager (washed and stored till next winter) went well as pitched, but both times into low OG beers (sub 1045s). I panicked with the Kolsch and thinking the yeast useless, pitched a spare dry Safbrew T58 into the mix as it was in my box. Fermenting well. Not certain which yeast is going what though !!!

Made a simple english ale pitching Nottingham (dry) yesterday and it's also burping away beautifully.

I've got some Wyeast Thames Valley and London Ale packs which I'll make up for some browns and porters for winter consumption and I take all advice here on board. Again, thanks.

And I'll try the Kolsch again. :beerbang:

 

[sathid]

What do you guys normally make your starter in?

The MrMalty calculator says I need a 2.5L starter.

 

[Stuster]

Mostly an old plastic juice bottle.

Occasionally, I've used my 5L glass carboys, but mainly just stick to the juice containers, with foil over the top. Easy to stick in the fridge if you want to only use the slurry. Can be capped at an early stage just so you know there's some fermentation happening. Just wash them well before use. Low tech FTW!

 

[sathid]

That sounds like a great idea. I'll avoid using the old milk bottles

I've got an american ale II, I smacked it last night, and it's swelled up quite a lot (not completely yet). Pitching into a 1.050 wort, 19L. Packet dated July 16th. What would the implications be of just pitching it straight into the wort?

I'd really like to get the brew on today.

 

[Stuster]

You'll still get beer. :lol:

You will be underpitching, but not dramatically. You will probably get a longer lag time, but I wouldn't worry about it too much. If you have time, make a starter. When can you do that? When do you want to pitch it? Either way, make sure you aerate well to encourage yeast growth.

 

[Screwtop]

What do you guys normally make your starter in?

The MrMalty calculator says I need a 2.5L starter.

2L Erlenmyer Flask on the stirplate, or a 2.4L Berri Juice bottle. Boil 200g DME in 2L water for 10 min. Cool to 24 and pitch the swollen smack pack. Shake it to aerate every time you pass by and release the cap a little to let off pressure. When finished, put the bottle into the fridge (should be < 4C) for 24 hrs to drop out. Gently pour off most of the beer and leave the bottle on the bench to warm up to room temp while making up another 2L of wort. Cool and tip into the bottle containing the yeast and away we go again. After dropping out and tipping off most of the beer you will have yeast from a 4L starter. Have a look at the repitching from slurry tab in the calculator, if you've poured off say 75% of the beer set the non yeast percentage to 25% and pitch the amount of yeast slurry calculated. You can then wash the remaining yeast and store under saline for the future.

 

[sathid]

I'll be pitching at about 3 pm.

My last beer seemed a bit underattenuated (using 2 packets of us05 that I rehydrated).

It's my first AG BIAB and I probably could just wait, but wouldn't get a chance to do it until tuesday at the earliest. I'd rather do it today, but if it's going to cause me any problems then I'll wait.

 

[Stuster]

leave the bottle on the bench to warm up to room temp while making up another 2L of wort.

No need for this step, Screwtop. Pitching cold from the fridge is fine. Temperature shock for yeast is a problem going from hot to cold. Cold to hot is fine. I always do this now with slurry in the fridge. Just straight out of the fridge and into the wort.

sathid, not sure of your time frame. Can you make a starter now?

 

[sathid]

As soon as I get to the home brew shop and get some DME.

Would it be ready to pitch by this arvo?

 

[Stuster]

The longer the better, but if you give it a few hours start, shaking as often as you can, you should get some yeast growth. Better than nothing. If it's going to be hard to do that, I wouldn't worry too much though. You should still have enough yeast there to ferment 19L.

As far as the last beer being underattenuated with two packets of US05, I think I'd be looking somewhere else for the cause of this than the yeast. Have you calibrated your thermometer? High mash temp might be the cause.