Skimming!

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jayse

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Just read some posts on those that skim and those that don't, anyway for the interest of making the information more easy to find i'll start it again in its own thread. Firstly i add my 'maybe not worth a brassrazzoo' opinion.
I don't skim anything out of the boil.
When your skiming straight at the start it is my 'unproven' theory that it doesn't do any good and in actuall fact may have a negative result in that these pieces you skim straight from the top should be left into coagulate and precipitate out as they are meant to taking the even smaller particles with it, skimming them off you take away a major portion of what all the little particles left in would flocc too and precipate out with.
During the boil these particles all gradually get bigger in size and you notice it if you take out a glass of wort mid boil everynow and then, you'll see they are gradually floccing together and forming bigger and bigger 'flakes' . i call it a brewers lava lamp watching hot wort in a glass:) at different times you'll notice they will behave diferently.
If you boil for 30mins before you add the hops(with a couple grams of hops in from the start) the majority of protien will have precipated out, Then it is safe to add your hops with out the resins being taking out of the wort with the protien, If you do add your hops early then there is a reasonbly chance you would loose some effiency. I don't think skimming then adding hops is the answer, skim or not technically you still have to boil for at least 15 mins first and if you do that then there won't be much left to skim anyway because it will have started too precipate out and taken alot more out with it.
Given the perfectly clear run off I get from the mash tun what does make it into the kettle i think should remain in there to help achieve a more complete protien precipation.

I know alot of skimmers and honestly i haven't picked a difference in the beers but technically to me i think skimming isn't the right way to go and you would get a better protien coagulation and precipation if you didn't. Not skiming then going with this 'theory' of mine equals a better break, be mindfull what you are skimming is not the hot break, its just crap floating on top in which i think it would be better left in to help form a complete break.
Skimming is therfore just a practical proccess for some people, what bennifits it adds to the wort itself i would like to read more information.
If anything skimming is best done in the fermentor to removed harsh bitter hop compounds that come out of the wort with the yeast and co2 , in the kettle the protien and other matter from the grain is best left to do its thing.
I would like others' opinions' either way, i know some people with a less than perfect run off from the mash tun would proberly do well to remove some iam just talking if everything is as it should be.


Jayse
Wannabe president of 'the no skiming the boil society!'
Iam not saying eitherway is right or wrong, iam just think my way is best :ph34r: ;)
ps....wacked up a poll so vote!
 

NRB

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I skim, but my main purpose is to reduce the chance of boilover. I might join the no-skim brigade and see what happens.
 

JasonY

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Can't say I have ever tried it, I am just too lazy <_< that and as you describe I have yet to hear any evidence that the quality of the beer is vastly improved which may make me invest in the effort.

As for hop AA extraction being reduced by adding before a full hot break has been achieved I am sure this is probably the case due to break coating the hops or something, but again is it that significant? I usually just boil for 15mins before starting hops. Again I can't be stuffed with long boils unless I think it is needed for the beer.

To top it off I also don't skim in the fermenter ... except for the occasional (and I mean very occasional) yeast havesting experiment. Have heard some conflicting views I am sure as to the magnitude of the effect of removing crud from the krausen? Perhaps I should give it a shot.

JasonY - another non skimming brewer. :)
 

jayse

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JasonY said:
snipped out some vitals>>>>

due to break coating the hops or something,


removing crud from the krausen? .

JasonY - another non skimming brewer. :)
[post="51211"][/post]​
Yeap pretty much the hop polyphenols get trapped in with the break material and therefore the resins are no longer in sollution.


Don't you just love the bitterness of that crud, it makes a good party trick...hey try some of this 'yeast' :ph34r:

Jayse
 

sosman

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Jayse I can't say for sure whether skimming improves my beer or not. My hop utilization has gone up and I attribute that to the fact that far less is deposited in a ring above the wort.
 

jayse

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Ok cool thanx sos, so that was a yeap, i think you forgot to vote!
but if its only whats deposited in a ring around the kettle that is the worry you can ladle wort over that and put it back in, Not just that if you break the tension first with a few grams of hops then when you add all the bittering addition it shouldn't go into a furry and rise up significantly. I don't put any hops in if there is any great deal of break material still on the suface, if after 30mins there is still what looks like fatty oily material sometimes i will skim that off.
If you didn't skim and boiled for 30mins first and broke the surface tension with a gram or two of hops and still get lower effiency it would be interesting in finding a clear cut answer why.
Is your runnings from the tun as clear as they should be?

Jayse
 

sosman

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My runnings are not perfectly clear. I am thinking of setting up a doover for recirculating with the march pump. I generally recirculate 4 litres or so by hand.
 

jayse

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I thought you would do that already, with the jungle you brew in I thought it would be a little hard to get in there and do anything by hand. ;) :D

Jayse
 
J

Jovial_Monk

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I used to skim, no longer do, can't tell any difference in the beers. A few hop pellets addedto the wort before a boil is reached greatly reduces the chance of a boilover.

Leon of ESB, who I saw doing one of his Saturday mash demos wraps a hop bag around his false bottom and had no foaming at all hardly! I plan to one day wrap my manifold in a straining bag and see if I get the same result. Leon handed out plenty of samples of his beers and they were all exellent.

Jovial Monk
 

Batz

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I have been told that the crap some of us skim off , ie. that stuff on top of the wort as it comes to the boil is not the hot break anyway.
Others maybe able to add to this , I have done skimming , and have not skimmed , I can't tell the differance

Batz
 

jayse

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Batz said:
I have been told that the crap some of us skim off , ie. that stuff on top of the wort as it comes to the boil is not the hot break anyway.
[post="51232"][/post]​
yeap I mentioned that in my first post.


jayse said:
its just crap floating on top
[post="51206"][/post]​
I would consider it 'break material' but to call it 'the' hot break i think is not correct.


Jayse
 

Kai

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I've noticed two types of foam floating on top, one coarse the other a lot denser. I'd always assumed the latter was the hot break, but I don't skim anything off since I don't really know what's going on.
 

Ross

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I skim - not sure it improves the beer, but it does stop boil overs - so until i get credible evidence to the contrary, I will continue...
 

jayse

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Ross said:
I skim - not sure it improves the beer, but it does stop boil overs - so until i get credible evidence to the contrary, I will continue...
[post="51271"][/post]​
Iam not so sure it stops boil overs, if you break the tension with hops before it comes to the boil and use your burner correctly than you shouldn't get a boil over if you have a desent head room in your kettle.
I think people may skim not so much as to stop boil overs but if the level of wort is close to the top of the kettle then you skim to stop it simply bubbling over from a normal boil.
The boil over can happen simply because the heat is way to high and will happen in this situation wether you skimmed or not.

So in the end the only reason i see to skim is if your kettle is full to the brim and you don't want it bubbling over and dripping onto the burner leaving you with a giant burnt caramal mess.
By boil over i take that as when your heat is way to high and the wort comes rushing out of the top of the kettle, there are ways of stopping that from happening and skimming isn't really a major factor.
Skimming is good however for when you kettle is full and you don't want burnt wort everwhere, but thats not really from a boil over that just because you kettle is so full and its bubbling over.

Anyway my final point is boil overs are human errors not a result of not skimming your brew. It bubbling over the top of the kettle because its too full is not a boil over but simply a tight fit.

Jayse
 

Trough Lolly

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I DO skim, but in the primary fermenter, not the kettle. Any material gathering above the surface of the boil gets washed back in - if I didn't want it in the boil I wouldn't have added it in the first place! So I voted no to skimming the kettle but would have voted YES to skimming in primary...

I have made the same brew, and skimmed the krausen before it fell back into the wort in primary and can tell the difference in the finished beers compared to the same brew that I didn't skim the krausen off. And don't let anyone tell you that skimming the krausen inhibits the fermentation process - that's wank! I've skimmed Irish Stouts and had a new two inch krausen on top the following morning! The first krausen usually looks like a lawn mowers pavlova - a thick greasy crust of break and hop material that yes, is more bitter than the mother in law. The second krausen is usually a tan yeasty froth and if I have the time, I will skim that too but normally I forget to do it - I prefer closed fermentation and normally only rip the lid off the fermenter once in primary...
I often rack the cooled post boil wort to the fermenter, hop material, trub and all and let it settle out in primary so to me, skimming the boil is immaterial and not necessary. It depends on what I'm brewing on the day.
Cheers,
TL
 

jayse

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Thanx for posting trough lolly, sounds like you and i are pretty much on the same page.
Next time the mother in law is around put that stuff in her coffee :ph34r: :ph34r:



Jayse
 

Trough Lolly

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No worries Jayse,
As for the M-I-L, it doesn't matter what I brew her - battery acid and cats piss wouldn't make any difference to the old witch - she'd still winge about my coffee. Just because I like it strong, she gets aggro if I wave the jar within a foot of her cup!
She made me a coffee - once. Ever had hot water with lots of milk and nothing else in it? Shocking...thank god she doesn't drink beer.
Cheers,
TL
[rant mode off! Time for another Irish Ale!!] :chug:
 

Ross

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jayse said:
Ross said:
I skim - not sure it improves the beer, but it does stop boil overs - so until i get credible evidence to the contrary, I will continue...
[post="51271"][/post]​
Iam not so sure it stops boil overs, if you break the tension with hops before it comes to the boil and use your burner correctly than you shouldn't get a boil over if you have a desent head room in your kettle.
I think people may skim not so much as to stop boil overs but if the level of wort is close to the top of the kettle then you skim to stop it simply bubbling over from a normal boil.
The boil over can happen simply because the heat is way to high and will happen in this situation wether you skimmed or not.



Jayse
[post="51307"][/post]​
Jayse,

Sorry mate but skimming does stop boil overs - Maybe breaking the surface tension by adding hops does the same thing, but my experience has found the opposite, with any additions causing an inital 'foaming' which if you have a full boil pot can cause a boil over. skimming or spraying the surface with water will stop the initial foaming. - If you have sufficient headspace in your boiler this is not an issue, but if you havn't, it is...
 

jayse

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Trough Lolly said:
Ever had hot water with lots of milk and nothing else in it? [rant mode off! Time for another Irish Ale!!] :chug:
[post="51319"][/post]​
Yeap sadly those types of coffees are the ussall in my family and friends too, i have tipped many down the sink while no one is looking.


[/quote]

Jayse,

Sorry mate but skimming does stop boil overs - Maybe breaking the surface tension by adding hops does the same thing, but my experience has found the opposite, with any additions causing an inital 'foaming' which if you have a full boil pot can cause a boil over. skimming or spraying the surface with water will stop the initial foaming. - If you have sufficient headspace in your boiler this is not an issue, but if you havn't, it is...
[post="51326"][/post]​
[/quote]
i think you said what i said before, with you it is a case of simply you don't have enough room, but still you should be able to control it not to throw such a vigourus foam boil over, it is more merely a case of any amount of boiling to hard and it'll bubble over the edges if the kettle is full.
By the sounds of things you have quite a significant amount of break material on top of you wort at the begining and this would suggest you are carring over too much grain matter to the boil.
either way i still maintain that a real boil over is not so much because of the wort itself but because of human error. You cause boil overs, not skimming the boil is not a cause for the wort to go mental if you do everything right.
If you have a crazy amount of foam and boil overs i think the blame can't be put down to not skimming the wort even if skimming the wort next time seems to fix it.
all you really speak of is yor kettle isn't big enough, you can't blame the wort for that!

Jayse
EDIT...ps sorry i messed up with the quotes right there and don't feel like going back and editing it to read properly right now.
 

Kai

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If I'm worried about boilovers I kick the heat back when making additions.
 
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