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PostModern
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So you recommend +50 temps to get rid of the people from the brew then?
Well, tbh, I'd be happier at -30 than +50.
Leigh
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So you recommend +50 temps to get rid of the people from the brew then?
Would depend on what "time" you held them at the temperature, and also how "vigourous" the environment was...
Would a cyclonic 50 be more effective, or a stagnant 50
maltedhopalong
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The sacrificial annodes don't dissolve, they react with the corrosive elements to form salts. The assumption people are making is that these metals don't precipitate out and form crud at the bottom of the HWS. Magnesium oxide for example is "insoluble" in water - it's not COMPLETELY insoluble but it's chemically described as insoluble because so little of it is able to be absorbed by the water - it's far too heavy. So quite a fair bit wouldn't even make it out of the tank. Further than that, using the magnesium oxide example, it's pretty poorly absorbed by the human body. Doctors recommend Magnesium Aspartate, Magnesium Glycinate etc. etc. because these are much more effectively absorbed by the body where a magnesium supplement is required.
Bottom line is, don't think about eating the annode, think about licking it a couple of times over a few years.
Bottom line is, don't think about eating the annode, think about licking it a couple of times over a few years.
PostModern
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Until it's all gone.
Got any stats on the number of Al vs Mg anodes in Aussie tanks?
Interesting thread.
A few quotes from a plumbing website in Sydney.
Every brand of mains-pressure hot water storage heater with a vitreous enamel (glass) lined tank, is fitted with one or two sacrificial anodes, to ensure that corrosion cannot take place during the warranty period of the tank. In Sydney, where the water quality is quite good, (an averageTDS* reading of 90 parts per million) anodes in small water heaters can last for as little as 4 or 5 years before being expended and thus allowing corrosion to commence. NB: Refer to the section - How long should an anode last before it needs replacement to see how long an anode should last for all sizes of water heaters.
Anodes are manufactured from a special grade of magnesium and they protect steel by a sacrificial electro-chemical action. Magnesium is electro-negative relative to steel. When a magnesium rod is fitted to a steel hotwater tank filled with fresh water, a current will constantly flow through the water between the rod and any exposed steel area on the tank wall. The circuit is completed through the tank back to the magnesium rod. This protective current is produced by the magnesium releasing ions, and this results in corrosion in the anodic area. This type of rust protection is called sacrificial. The magnesium (the anode) corrodes instead of the steel tank (the cathode). This principle of electrolytic corrosion control is called cathodic protection. Because cathodic surfaces cannot rust, the hot tank is protected.
The older a water heater is, the greater the likelihood of it having little or no remaining active anode and at the same time, having experienced an appreciable deterioration of the "glass" lining, thus leaving areas of' exposed steel wall where corrosion may have already started. While that corrosion cannot be reversed, it can certainly be arrested by the introduction of a new anode, which can get to work by reversing the electrical flow and converting the hot water tank wall back to a cathode (parts of it will have become anodic after the original anode ceased operating).
Once there is any discolouration of the hot water, the heater is usually too badly rusted to be saved by fitting a new anode. It's a simple matter to test for rust damage of the tank by filtering the hot water through several layers of closely woven white cloth directly from the hot tap for 30 seconds. (A make-up removal pad also works very well). Any tank corrosion will cause some discolouration of the water which will be evident on the cloth
http://www.calltheplumber.net.au/hot-water/
A few quotes from a plumbing website in Sydney.
Every brand of mains-pressure hot water storage heater with a vitreous enamel (glass) lined tank, is fitted with one or two sacrificial anodes, to ensure that corrosion cannot take place during the warranty period of the tank. In Sydney, where the water quality is quite good, (an averageTDS* reading of 90 parts per million) anodes in small water heaters can last for as little as 4 or 5 years before being expended and thus allowing corrosion to commence. NB: Refer to the section - How long should an anode last before it needs replacement to see how long an anode should last for all sizes of water heaters.
Anodes are manufactured from a special grade of magnesium and they protect steel by a sacrificial electro-chemical action. Magnesium is electro-negative relative to steel. When a magnesium rod is fitted to a steel hotwater tank filled with fresh water, a current will constantly flow through the water between the rod and any exposed steel area on the tank wall. The circuit is completed through the tank back to the magnesium rod. This protective current is produced by the magnesium releasing ions, and this results in corrosion in the anodic area. This type of rust protection is called sacrificial. The magnesium (the anode) corrodes instead of the steel tank (the cathode). This principle of electrolytic corrosion control is called cathodic protection. Because cathodic surfaces cannot rust, the hot tank is protected.
The older a water heater is, the greater the likelihood of it having little or no remaining active anode and at the same time, having experienced an appreciable deterioration of the "glass" lining, thus leaving areas of' exposed steel wall where corrosion may have already started. While that corrosion cannot be reversed, it can certainly be arrested by the introduction of a new anode, which can get to work by reversing the electrical flow and converting the hot water tank wall back to a cathode (parts of it will have become anodic after the original anode ceased operating).
Once there is any discolouration of the hot water, the heater is usually too badly rusted to be saved by fitting a new anode. It's a simple matter to test for rust damage of the tank by filtering the hot water through several layers of closely woven white cloth directly from the hot tap for 30 seconds. (A make-up removal pad also works very well). Any tank corrosion will cause some discolouration of the water which will be evident on the cloth
http://www.calltheplumber.net.au/hot-water/
Mine is much the same as this, I would void my warranty for the filter/housing if I use it with water over 32. Not sure how they'd know though.
The King of Spain
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Wow! Whats that, 67 posts? Hey some pretty good stuff too. Plan B was always to convert to natural gas (methane) from the street when I do re-do our kitchen. Thats cheap too..
Cheers
KOS
Cheers
KOS
Pumpy
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Thats it I am going to bed ,KOS you create a monster of using a electric water heater ,Then you kill it off by saying you were going to use natural gas anyway .
Pumpy
LethalCorpse
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Bugger. Very much my kinda thread, but I only find it after pretty much all my points have already been brought up. A few comments, though, if you'll permit me:
Seriously, though, there's exposed live terminals in there. Refer to sig.
There's a big difference between scare-mongering and discussion, debate and efforts to pass on acquired knowledge to others to allow them to make their own informed decisions. I'm sure scare-mongering goes on occasionally, but don't confuse the former with the latter. Just because you don't think that something is an issue, don't let it upset you when other people want to talk about it. I know I bring up corrosion a lot, but that's because there are threads discussing related questions a lot (this thread is in large part about the same issue), and I speak from a reasonably well informed position. I don't consider it to be an unassailable position though, and every time I do bring it up I'm presenting information, not telling anyone what decision to make. I also know that you're mostly pulling the piss, but you're laying it on a tad thick. And I think you misused panacea BTW. I'd've gone for soap box or pulpit. Luminaries was a good one though
Back on topic, like I said, most of my points are already here. I've seen a few sources which discourage drinking hot water because metals dissolve more readily in hot water than cold, and there's a whole range of heavy metals in the system including lead. I did see one story which gave an analysis with quite high levels of dissolved lead, aluminium, copper and even mercury, but I think it might have been on ACA or similar and therefore not worth referencing. There's the ever-present spectre of galvanic corrosion *winks at Warren* dissolving metal solids from the sacrificial anode and other assorted fittings, which results in greater concentrations than in other examples (like HLT, mashtun and fittings) because there's more metal involved and it sits there for longer periods of time. Then there's the bacteria, which probably isn't, but might be living happily in your water tank. This bacteria won't make it through the boil, but off-flavours and aromas from what it does before it gets to the kettle might. Then of course there's the years worth of other mineral deposits built up on the inside of the heater.
None of this is going to kill you. I'd be hard pressed to mount an argument for it potentially making you sick (though continued consumption of concentrated dissolved metal solids certainly can). I'd go so far as to contest that it might, to some extent, affect the flavour and quality of your beer, though. Traditional brewing lore says that the quality of the brewing water is of utmost importance. I can taste the difference between different sources of tap water around Australia, and between those and bottled water or fresh water out of mountain springs. You'd be mad not to think that those differences aren't perceptible after you've made beer out of the water. All of things above can affect the taste of the water, as can using non-food-grade plastics and hoses. Like PoMo said, if you can taste the hose when you're drinking out of it, don't brew with it. I'd love to be brewing beside the source of a mountain spring, or somewhere in Tasmania (you guys got good water, which I can taste in Boags), but in the meanwhile I'll settle for not adding anything more to my tap water than gets added on its way to me.
Dunno, is it? Mine's a Rheem with an adjustable thermostat between 50C and 80C, currently set at 75C. It's a small unit and I'd rather use more power keeping it at a hotter temperature than run out of hot water every time I take a shower. You can't access that without taking off the cover plate, and you can't take off the cover plate without shutting off the power, and since it's a fixed appliance you can't do any of that unless you're an electrician. I, of course, know what's under there and what it's set to because an electrician friend showed me.
Seriously, though, there's exposed live terminals in there. Refer to sig.
Who, me? I'm not self-appointed, I was appointed by the Luminary General.
There's a big difference between scare-mongering and discussion, debate and efforts to pass on acquired knowledge to others to allow them to make their own informed decisions. I'm sure scare-mongering goes on occasionally, but don't confuse the former with the latter. Just because you don't think that something is an issue, don't let it upset you when other people want to talk about it. I know I bring up corrosion a lot, but that's because there are threads discussing related questions a lot (this thread is in large part about the same issue), and I speak from a reasonably well informed position. I don't consider it to be an unassailable position though, and every time I do bring it up I'm presenting information, not telling anyone what decision to make. I also know that you're mostly pulling the piss, but you're laying it on a tad thick. And I think you misused panacea BTW. I'd've gone for soap box or pulpit. Luminaries was a good one though
This intrigued me, because I thought they all came with at least five years warranty, mostly ten and up to twenty, so I checked the aquamax website. Slippery bastards eh? They give you a 5yr warranty on the cylinder, but a 1yr warranty on parts and labour.
Back on topic, like I said, most of my points are already here. I've seen a few sources which discourage drinking hot water because metals dissolve more readily in hot water than cold, and there's a whole range of heavy metals in the system including lead. I did see one story which gave an analysis with quite high levels of dissolved lead, aluminium, copper and even mercury, but I think it might have been on ACA or similar and therefore not worth referencing. There's the ever-present spectre of galvanic corrosion *winks at Warren* dissolving metal solids from the sacrificial anode and other assorted fittings, which results in greater concentrations than in other examples (like HLT, mashtun and fittings) because there's more metal involved and it sits there for longer periods of time. Then there's the bacteria, which probably isn't, but might be living happily in your water tank. This bacteria won't make it through the boil, but off-flavours and aromas from what it does before it gets to the kettle might. Then of course there's the years worth of other mineral deposits built up on the inside of the heater.
None of this is going to kill you. I'd be hard pressed to mount an argument for it potentially making you sick (though continued consumption of concentrated dissolved metal solids certainly can). I'd go so far as to contest that it might, to some extent, affect the flavour and quality of your beer, though. Traditional brewing lore says that the quality of the brewing water is of utmost importance. I can taste the difference between different sources of tap water around Australia, and between those and bottled water or fresh water out of mountain springs. You'd be mad not to think that those differences aren't perceptible after you've made beer out of the water. All of things above can affect the taste of the water, as can using non-food-grade plastics and hoses. Like PoMo said, if you can taste the hose when you're drinking out of it, don't brew with it. I'd love to be brewing beside the source of a mountain spring, or somewhere in Tasmania (you guys got good water, which I can taste in Boags), but in the meanwhile I'll settle for not adding anything more to my tap water than gets added on its way to me.
warrenlw63
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Sorry to go a little O/T again guys but I'll give you a toldyaso here LC. It was "gulp!" galvanic corrosion that killed the gas control unit.
Quite a bit of it too.
Warren -
LethalCorpse
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Bugger. How'd that happen? Shouldn't be in contact with the water should it?
warrenlw63
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From memory, (I should look the old controller is still down the sideway). It was the interface/gasket area where the controller mates up with the tank. Some water leakage (I think) occurs around this area and corrodes the area where the bolts hold the controller to the tank?
Just stood there happy as Larry thinking it would not be that expensive after it took the plumber 5 minutes to replace it only to be told the job would cost us $400 when he cleaned up. <_<
I'm in the wrong caper. Easy as to change upon observation and I'm guessing the new controller was less than half that price.
Warren -
T.D.
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This was precisely my thinking. The whole idea of an anode surely implies a chemical reaction with the metal to form some other chemical compound which is nothing like either of the two elements that make it up. Its not like eating the metal because the stuff that corrodes off the anode by that stage is a totally different substance.
mfdes
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Why I'm not worried:
As has been pointed out, magnesium is not really a problem in the levels that normally occur in hot water. Now with aluminium, as has been stated, the levels are not well defined. However keep in mind that when you chew on one of the popular brands of antacid you're eating 500mg of aluminium hydroxide. These have never been identifying as posing a threat to your health.
I'd be more concerned about lead in brass fittings and solder. If you hot water system was plumbed according to specs lead free solder should have been used. Lead in brass (a very small amount) can dissolve in acidic solutions, but brass fittings for hot water systems are designed assuming people are stupid and WILL drink water from the tank.
When it comes to bacteria it is a simple thing to beef up your hot water tank to run above pasteurisation temperature (63 degrees +). If you have kiddies you may not want to do this, and it IS more expensive to run the hotter you run it at, but it's not hard to do.
Just my 2c.
MFS
As has been pointed out, magnesium is not really a problem in the levels that normally occur in hot water. Now with aluminium, as has been stated, the levels are not well defined. However keep in mind that when you chew on one of the popular brands of antacid you're eating 500mg of aluminium hydroxide. These have never been identifying as posing a threat to your health.
I'd be more concerned about lead in brass fittings and solder. If you hot water system was plumbed according to specs lead free solder should have been used. Lead in brass (a very small amount) can dissolve in acidic solutions, but brass fittings for hot water systems are designed assuming people are stupid and WILL drink water from the tank.
When it comes to bacteria it is a simple thing to beef up your hot water tank to run above pasteurisation temperature (63 degrees +). If you have kiddies you may not want to do this, and it IS more expensive to run the hotter you run it at, but it's not hard to do.
Just my 2c.
MFS
therook
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Well said MFS, I had half replied along the same lines, however, I was far more vitriolic in my choice of words... Some things are better left unsaid I guess.
+1 thank God for MFS, why didn't you post earlier instead of putting us through all the duplicated posts about us all going to die
Rook
PostModern
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Who said anything about dying from using hot tank water? I said it tastes bad. Others said Mg is a tonic, others said it falls into the bottom of your tank. No-one (and I just re-read the thread to confirm) said that anyone was going to die.
pint of lager
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Thread cleanup.
Come one people, keep it on topic.
You haven't discussed yeast health with high levels of metal salts.
Come one people, keep it on topic.
You haven't discussed yeast health with high levels of metal salts.
AndrewQLD
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I'm with PoMo here, while this is anecdotal and hardly evidence as such I have noticed if I make a cup of coffee by boiling water from the cold tap it tastes fine, however if I boil the water from the hot tap the coffee tastes like sh!t.
That's why I don't use the hot water service during brewing.
Andrew
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