S-189 lager yeasts at Ale temps

[Tony]

Would like to add I was only talking about the 'Brew By U', 'Bru 4 U' BOP setups, in no way were my comments directed at Ross and Craftbrewer.

I know...... but i just felt like stirring the bloke


to add to bums comment.....

Not all yeast work the same....... look at Saison....... 30+ deg and quite clean beer.

Who says a yeast that will work at low lager temps wont ferment clean at low ale temps also ??

 

[Lillywhite]

I know...... but i just felt like stirring the bloke

Just wanted to ensure my next order wasn't spiked

 

[bum]

For sure, Tony, but I'm not certain that'd be the message anyone would want new brewers to take away from this thread though. Right?

 

[argon]

Who says a yeast that will work at low lager temps wont ferment clean at low ale temps also ??

That's what I reckon about S189 too. Seems to be a couple of sweet spots. Not sure why, but it does seem the case with the circumstantial evidence I've encountered.


Whether or not the 27C as mentioned in the OP is a sweet spot is doubtful though.

 

[matho]

Mmmmmm, lagers with esters. Stylish! :huh:

19C with S189 is not a lager. It's a bowl of fruit.

This is kinda unnecessarily picky. Nick's point is clearly related to lager yeast and not about the semantics of the word.

Having said that, many people are saying the beer in question is good so I have no doubt that it is. It is just that your point is misleading. Of course, Nick is usually deliberately and frequently far more misleading so I don't wish for this to be seen as a defence of him - more an effort to point out to people who may not understand that simply CCing their brews doesn't mean they can always get away with hot ferments with all lager yeasts.

Bum, not trying to be misleading, maybe facetious, my point was that by limiting the growth of the yeast the esters are reduced and with some cold conditioning you can produce a respectable lager. The second part of the post was in response to nicks post, if you use lager yeast and lager your beers why can't you call it a lager. For the record I have tried S23 at 18deg in a beer with JW pils, 20% sugar and POR to 22 ibu, It produced a beer that tasted very CUBish and when i gave it to a megaswiller they thought it was great, it wasn't a fruit salad but it wasn't super clean either

 

[Morebeer4me]

The thing about Craftbrewer and fermenting S189 @ 19C is that 19C is the temp the cold room is set at.... That is measuring the air. The fermenters are kept on a concrete floor and it's almost certain that the fabric of the room would be at least 4 to 5C cooler. So with a bottom fermenting yeast as S189 is the fermentation is probably more like 14C. Which is closer to a more traditional brewing temp. So 19C at Ross' is probably very different to 19C in my fridge.

Hi Argon,
The concrete floor should be a very stable temp, if the cold room was set at 19c, then the concrete would be around the same give or take a half degree. Most commercial cold rooms are fan forced, therefore there should be no temperature differences of any notable amount. I have visited a small number of very small breweries and the fermenters are put on pellets and sometimes stacked with no contact with floor. I would suggest therefore tht the wort temp would be 19 degrees once stable
Cheers Mate
Edit : Typo

 

[drew9242]

Actually no, not rubbish... sciencey stuff suggests there is a thing called thermal lag. Objects of greater density will lag behind temperature changes of those of lesser density. Hence the fabric of the enclosure will be cooler than that of it's contents.

I'm finding it hard to understand this point. I would have thought the thermal lag would work in the opposite way. In Queensland the ambient temp outside would be 30. So all the insulating walls will be trying to stop the heat coming in and would have no coolness stored. If the thermostat works on the ambient air, once it hits 19 it stops. Leaving in my opinion all walls and floors warmer because the air hasn't had time to cool them. Then the heat from outside gets in through the thermal mass and heats up the air and turns it on again. Or the fementing beers heat up the air and it turns on again. Either way i can't seem to work out how the beer would be cooler then ambient air temp.

Not trying to have a go. Just was an interesting point you made and trying to understand it better.

Cheers

 

[bum]

not trying to be misleading

Of course. I didn't mean to suggest this was your intention.

Naturally, saying that such beers aren't lagers is not correct but who has the time to go around correcting all of Nick's garbage? Perhaps I'm being unfair but my concern is that there are many members here of late who may read your post to mean that lagering can undo all damage done by inappropriate fermentation temps. Not suggesting that the discussed temps are always inappropriate.

 

[Morebeer4me]

I'm finding it hard to understand this point. I would have thought the thermal lag would work in the opposite way. In Queensland the ambient temp outside would be 30. So all the insulating walls will be trying to stop the heat coming in and would have no coolness stored. If the thermostat works on the ambient air, once it hits 19 it stops. Leaving in my opinion all walls and floors warmer because the air hasn't had time to cool them. Then the heat from outside gets in through the thermal mass and heats up the air and turns it on again. Or the fementing beers heat up the air and it turns on again. Either way i can't seem to work out how the beer would be cooler then ambient air temp.

Not trying to have a go. Just was an interesting point you made and trying to understand it better.

Cheers

Drew9242,
You are correct, also the thermal lag will only occur when the cold room is first turned on, after a week or so the concrete floor will be very stable. Later on because the floor and walls are close to the desired storage temps they I'll actually provide a Thermal buffer of sorts that will help the cold room keep stable temps.

 

[stux]

Even if the ambient is 19, the wort will be at 21 during the primary phase

Wyeast do mention that you can ferment lagers hotter if you pitch more, because of the lack of growth derived esters

 

[Nick JD]

If Ross's FWK Bohemian Pilsner can win a competition using S189 at 19C (ambient ... the actual temp of the fermenter will be a few degrees higher, possibly 23C since 19C ambient produces a rapid fermentation and a fair bit of subsequent exothermic heat) then I'm not sure if this says volumes about Craftbrewer's brewing skills, or something about the quality of the judging at the competition where it won.

Possibly a bit of both.

Imagine how good it'd be with a Czech yeast at an appropriate lager temperature.

 

[pcmfisher]

I have used S23 many times at 18 deg.
Tasted ok to me. Definitely no diacetyl problems.

I think it works out about the same as US05.

 

[the_new_darren]

I brew with it all the time. Not at 19C though - it's a ******* lager yeast.

Who else entered? S189 in a Boh Pils at 19C?

Oh dear. Can I suggest you use a Bohemian Pilsner yeast at a clean temperature? Or would that not work at 19C?!!!

This makes me lose faith in your competitions...

Which commerical Boh Pils brewers use S189 at 19C?

More honesty would be appreciated, Ross.

Rigged for sure. Was the Boh Pils decocted? I'm starting to think that the competition at these comps is pretty ******* average.

Post the recipe. I'd like to brew it myself at 19C and see if it's a winner...

Actually - wasn't this the comp you guys carpet bombed? For retail kudos.

I'm glad you have nothing more to add.

Actually - wasn't this the comp you guys carpet bombed? For retail kudos.

Others would call it cheating

 

[NickB]

To defend Ross somewhat, I believe he did withdraw all entries from that competition. The competition he actually won was NOT the one the two trolls on here are referring to. But I'll let Ross respond in due course.

Cheers

 

[Ross]

For those interested.

For German style lagers We use 25gms of S-189 in 55L of wort, fermented for 9 days in an airconditioned cold room set at 19c. The floor is the same temp as the air. The beers are then cold conditioned for 9 days at 1c, but this is primarilly to drop the yeast before filtering. It doesn't IMO have any noticable effect on the "fruitiness", as we taste all the beers when taking final gravities before transferring.
For aussie style lagers we use 25gms of S-23 exactly as above.

The S-189 gives a good clean result at these temps & is used worldwide commercially (especially in hotter climes), for the very reason that it ferments clean at warmer temps.
The S-23 is a little more estery & gives the beers a more aussie mega brewery type flavour & hence why we use in these brews.

If US-05 gave a better "lager" result at 19c we'd use it - It's half the price of S-189, but it doesn't, so we don't.

The beers we produce are permanently on tap at the brewery for anyone to sample & regularly on tap in bars around Brisbane. We make the beers the best we can with the ingredients & temperature control available to us.

....& as I've always said, my preference would be to ferment at lager temps, but we can't, so 19c it is & the results are quite acceptable.

Cheers Ross

 

[Nick JD]

....& as I've always said, my preference would be to ferment at lager temps, but we can't, so 19c it is & the results are quite acceptable.

Good to hear - I didn't think it was best practice. But if it's winning comps then I'd say it's exceptional, not acceptable - especially with such a small pitch.

 

[daemon]

Good to hear - I didn't think it was best practice. But if it's winning comps then I'd say it's exceptional, not acceptable - especially with such a small pitch.

So why all the name calling and bitching earlier? You complain about some of the posts on AHB yet contribute to the problem.... seems rather ironic to me.

I'd suggest putting your money where your mouth is and make a trip to Ross's shop to taste the beers. Give us some feedback then please, we'd all appreciate it.

 

[mckenry]

Good to hear - I didn't think it was best practice. But if it's winning comps then I'd say it's exceptional, not acceptable - especially with such a small pitch.

So why all the name calling and bitching earlier? You complain about some of the posts on AHB yet contribute to the problem.... seems rather ironic to me.

I'd suggest putting your money where your mouth is and make a trip to Ross's shop to taste the beers. Give us some feedback then please, we'd all appreciate it.

I think its a sarcastic backhanded compliment Daemon. Nick JD is saying Ross' beers are not brewed with best practice, underpitched and exceptional - as in rare / being an exception / not usual, rather than outstandingly good.

I could be wrong, its hard to get someones tone on a forum, but thats my guess.

Just enjoy the friendly banter :icon_cheers:

 

[MarkBastard]

This thread is hilarious because it's a total role reversal.

Nick JD, the pioneer of breaking rules and doing whatever to make beer easily is getting his back up about not fermenting yeast at an ideal temperature.

I normally tend to take Nick JD's side because he puts theory and ******** aside and talks about his own experiences and how they work for him, however this time I can not. Nick it sounds like you brewed a batch and got fruity esters and now you're the authority? And the commercial brewer and competitive judges must be wrong. That just doesn't hold up.

 

[petesbrew]

For those interested.

For German style lagers We use 25gms of S-189 in 55L of wort, fermented for 9 days in an airconditioned cold room set at 19c. The floor is the same temp as the air. The beers are then cold conditioned for 9 days at 1c, but this is primarilly to drop the yeast before filtering. It doesn't IMO have any noticable effect on the "fruitiness", as we taste all the beers when taking final gravities before transferring.
For aussie style lagers we use 25gms of S-23 exactly as above.

The S-189 gives a good clean result at these temps & is used worldwide commercially (especially in hotter climes), for the very reason that it ferments clean at warmer temps.
The S-23 is a little more estery & gives the beers a more aussie mega brewery type flavour & hence why we use in these brews.

If US-05 gave a better "lager" result at 19c we'd use it - It's half the price of S-189, but it doesn't, so we don't.

The beers we produce are permanently on tap at the brewery for anyone to sample & regularly on tap in bars around Brisbane. We make the beers the best we can with the ingredients & temperature control available to us.

....& as I've always said, my preference would be to ferment at lager temps, but we can't, so 19c it is & the results are quite acceptable.Cheers Ross

This is the same for a lot of us. And if there's a lager yeast that can get good results at those temps, then why not promote it?