Rye Problems

[Major Arcana]

Hi Guys,

I put down a wheat and rye ale last night, I BIAB and came across a problem I never experienced before, when it came the boil I noticed that it was cutting in and out where it will boil for a minute then stop and then restart etc. I was a bit worried about this affecting the final gravity etc so kept the boil going for another 10mins. I transferred to my cube etc and then realised that element (I have a concealed element) cover dome had black burnt on residue from what I can only say was from the rye and no doubt wheat also. This was the cause for the erratic boil. Has anybody else experienced this with the urn and with rye and wheat recipes? Next time I will put the colander in to cover the element area. I was 4 points off my target do you think it was wise to let the boil go another 10 mins, so 70min boil all up?. Love to hear your thoughts.

cheers,

Dan

 

[dcan6303]

Hey Dan,

Does your beer have a burnt taste to it? I had a similar experience recently - Here's what happened to me.

I was brewing a Golden Ale with 20% rye BIAB in my exposed element electric urn with a ss colander protecting the bag from the element during the raise to mash-out, as I have done with all my previous all grain beers.

Was aiming for a simple 90 min mash at 66* with 78* mashout. Beersmith suggested 68* before the grain went in, which is what I usually do. I had just got a new Thermapen so I paid more attention to the temp than I usually do, and a few mins after adding the grain noticed temp had dropped to 63-64. So I flicked the element on for a few mins to raise it a couple of degrees - I think I stirred it pretty well during this time. The rest of the mash held temp pretty well and I ramped out as usual.

Anyway after I had finished the boil and cubed the wort I noticed a 1mm thick hard black coating on the element, which I have never had before. At first I thought it might have been mineral deposits but tasted the gravity sample the next day and it had a burnt / smokey flavour. Dumped the batch. I had to soak the element in vinegar to soften before I could chip it off.

Anyway, I'm about ready to start experimenting with stepped mashes, but I'm a little cautious about this happening again. I imagine it had to do with either the Rye in the grain bill, or applying direct heat too soon in the mash and messing with the proteins or something. Does anyone have any rules on things to avoid with stepped mashes in an electric urn? I've read a lot of comments on protecting the bag, but not much about this issue.

Found this tread discussing burning proteins during stepped mashes. Seems to be worst with Rye.

 

[paulyman]

Had the same experience using 20% rye on my exposed element. Burnt black crud all over the element. Took 3 attempts soaking in Citric acid to clean the element.

*edit - I step mashed, mashed in at 40, 55 for 10, 64 or 66 can't remember which for 60, then mash out at 78 for 10. Didn't notice the smell until the boil was nearly up.

 

[mofox1]

I love my rye beers, but from my little experience so far they're a pain in the ar$e...

I don't get the element protein issue, but I get a LOT more fluffy-won't-fall-out-of-suspension-trub in the cube, which also doesn't settle very well in the fermenter.

Somehow I escaped the problem last night because I partially froze my Rye IPA when cold crashing. The ice slush filtered all the leftover trub and I was getting crystal clear beer INTO the keg! :lol:

 

[gone brewing]

Hey Dan

I recently used a little rye for the 1st time, using ale, munich and rye malts in 75/15/10% respectively. I BIAB in an urn with a concealed element. I have learnt from previous batches that I get a build up of material on top of the cover so I am in the habit of using a very long scraper to scrape across the top of the cover several times during the boil. I did the same with this batch but had noticeably more material at the end of the boil and I put that down to the rye.

I think that your urn was cutting off so often because the material building up on the cover was insulating the element, not allowing the heat to dissipate into the wort, causing the element to cut out. I don't think a colander over the cover will help as the material that builds up is coming out of the wort as you boil. you would be better off scraping the material away during the boil.

 

[Major Arcana]

Hey Guys,

Thanks for the replies, so it seems to be a wheat and rye thing and my thoughts on using a colander may be out the door also. Like you mentioned gone brewing that the material is being produced during the boil so it is not going to stop the material settling and burning onto the element.
I didn't notice a burnt smell, but I am going to have to taste a sample later to see if it passed through in to the wort, i hope not otherwise it will be a sad dumping time.
So scraping the element cover during the boil is a must I would also do a scrape just after mash out when getting to the boil?

Oh well fingers crossed, but I learnt to be a lot more wary when making a wheat and rye beer!

cheers,

 

[mrp64]

This from wikipedia:
...the use of rye in brewing is considered difficult as rye lacks a hull (like wheat) and contains large quantities of beta-glucans compared to other grains; these long-chain sugars can leach out during a mash, creating a sticky gelatinous gum in the mash tun, and as a result brewing with rye requires a long, thorough beta-glucanase rest. Rye is said to impart a spicy, dry flavor to beer.

I did my first ever BIAB rye golden ale before Xmas and although the beer turned out fine in the end, I had this exact problem with gelatinous crap burning onto the bottom of my urn causing cutouts. The cutouts were happening during the mash and the boil. Had to keep scraping the black shit off the bottom of the urn with a metal spoon to finish the brew.
I've had scorching before but never as bad as with rye; really severe black scorching. Took an age and a lot of effort to clean up the urn. Don't think I will be doing another rye for a while, not worth the hassle on my current gear.

MRP

 

[gone brewing]

The first time I did the BIAB in the urn and got a fair bit of this charred material I didn't get any bad flavours so here's hoping yours is OK. You only need to scrape the bottom of the urn after boiling starts, no need after the mash.

I actually took one of those stainless steel pizza paddles, for getting a pizza out of the oven, and cut/grinded the end and sides flat. This is what I use to scrape the bottom of the urn. Mind you, you have to season (passivate) the metal after cutting it so you don't put metallic flavours in your beer the first time you use it. I learnt that the hard way.

 

[Jamo]

Hi all.

I also BIAB in a concealed element urn and did a 20% wheat and 20% rye golden ale not so long back. I don't step mash in the urn. I use a cake cooler rack on the bottom during the mash to keep the bag off the bottom but take it out for the boil. During the boil I always give the element a scrape every so often. I didn't have any problems with this recipe while making it, but I did end up with more black gunk burnt onto the element than I've had with any other recipe. I used to occasionally get the urn cutting out during the boil but since using the cake cooler and scraping, it hasn't cut out. I feel like I was a bit lucky with this recipe and if I do it again I might drop the rye a bit - just to be safe.

Jamo

 

[indica86]

I constantly get black shit stuck to my concealed element in the Crown Urn when making Rye beers.
Absolute PITA but I love the beer so I will keep making them.

 

[RobB]

Oh good, so it's not just me? I have only ever had one scorched beer, in what shall be known as the unfortunate roggenbier incident. Perhaps the alarm bells should have rung when I saw wort the consistency of glue.

60% wheat, no problem, but rye needs a bit more caution with exposed elements.

 

[donald_trub]

I've made rye beers in my Crown urn before but haven't noticed scorching. I don't do BIAB, just use the Crown as a kettle. Is the scorching a result of BIAB?

 

[Spiesy]

The ice slush filtered all the leftover trub and I was getting crystal clear beer INTO the keg! :lol:

Cold/crash chilling at around 1-2 degrees for a week in your fermenter should give you fairly clear beer into your keg every day of the week.

 

[shacked]

Sadly, I'm a +1 on this.

I did a wheat beer (49% pale, 49% wheat, 2% light crystal) today with BIAB in a concealed element crown urn - I also use a drop in strainer from HBHB and the same thing happened to me. The element kept cutting in and out after about 60 mins into a 90 min boil. I cut the boil slightly short and filled up a cube.

I did a single rest at 67C for 75 mins and a mash out at 76C for 10.

There was a small amount of burnt crap on the element cover but not too much. Got most of it off by scrubbing and I am hoping the rest comes off from an overnight soak with percab.

My wort didn't actually taste burnt. Is it something that may come out later? I'm not keen on reopening the cube and trying it. I plan on pitching it on Tuesday.

 

[indica86]

Although I have this issue I do not have a burnt taste.
Don't worry... B e H A P P Y

 

[seamad]

Should be fine, I burnt out an element with a rye beer, it smelt/tasted burnt in the urn. When I did biab I made a scrubbing brush up on a long handle and gave the element a scrub after pulling the bag ( just turn urn off first ) and that fixed the problem.
I still find with my rims system that the element tends to get a bit burnt with rye beers.

 

[shacked]

Although I have this issue I do not have a burnt taste.
Don't worry... B e H A P P Y

I pitched the cube last night and there is no burnt taste