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Half-baked

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We don’t recommend aerating the wort in normal conditions" pedant or not how in real terms is this different to
We recommend people do not aerate the wort in normal conditions.
I didn’t really mean to sidetrack this thread into English pedantry, but I will anyway...
We recommend you = we think you should
We do not recommend you = we’re not saying you should
We recommend you do not = we’re saying you shouldn’t
As an example, the very next Q&A from the Fermentis website:
Do you recommend using a rehydrating agent?
We actually do not recommend any rehydrating agent. Even though it will not harm the yeasts, we don’t see any positive effect with our range. In fact, we believe that if there is an effect, it is related to the nutrients added in fermentation. So, adjusting the nutrition in the fermentation is more than enough.


That’s not saying don’t use a rehydrating agent, that’s saying it’s not necessary.

Or on more of a tangent, it’s like the difference between guilty, not guilty and innocent.

I don’t have any inclinations on the use of dry yeast I’m trying to justify, just on the use of the English language 😉
 
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OK, aerating oxygenating a wort where the yeast will not use it means there is DO in the wort, the DO in the wort may or may not come out. If it does come out, there won't be the velocity of CO2 needed to purge the oxygen from the head space of the fermenter.
I run my venting CO2 to purge the secondary, even though in doing that I know I will still have o2 in there, not a lot I can do about it, but then I am going to be drinking it fairly quickly so not too many concerns. I do try and am conscious of keeping o2 out of my beer as much as I could reasonably expect. But it is nigh impossible to totally be free of oxygen.
Some good reads here.
 

GrumpyPaul

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I didn’t really mean to sidetrack this thread into English pedantry, but I will anyway...
We recommend you = we think you should
We do not recommend you = we’re not saying you should
We recommend you do not = we’re saying you shouldn’t
As an example, the very next Q&A from the Fermentis website:
Do you recommend using a rehydrating agent?
We actually do not recommend any rehydrating agent. Even though it will not harm the yeasts, we don’t see any positive effect with our range. In fact, we believe that if there is an effect, it is related to the nutrients added in fermentation. So, adjusting the nutrition in the fermentation is more than enough.


That’s not saying don’t use a rehydrating agent, that’s saying it’s not necessary.

Or on more of a tangent, it’s like the difference between guilty, not guilty and innocent.

I don’t have any inclinations on the use of dry yeast I’m trying to justify, just on the use of the English language 😉
Please keep the posts on track I'm sure OP didn't start this thread for a pedantic English lesson. Lets keep on track and help him with his RIS - or take the yeast debate to a more appropriate thread. Any further tit for tat that is going off track will be deleted
 
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I thought I would post my recipe in case anyone at home wants to play along.

I recently bottled my first go at a RIS, and had to stop myself drinking all the sample in the hydrometer cylinder. It started at 1.100 and finished at 1.021 after its six week journey into bottle. It was so complex and balanced already. I used the familiar Coopers three tin recipe with some steeped grain. Only two packets of US-05 and temperature control was via moving the fermenter around the house.

So, I think I can do better with what I’ve learnt already. I’ve got a temperature controlled conical fermenter now, and an oxygen aerating setup. I’m also getting a TILT to keep an eye on the fermentation progress. Ingredients will look like this-

1.7kg Coopers Stout
1.7kg Coopers Dark Ale
1.7kg Coopers Lager
1.5kg Coopers LME
1.0kg Dextrose
500g Medium Chrystal
500g Dark Munich
250g Chocolate
250g Roasted Barley
40g EK Goldings (10 minutes)
4 packets M42 New World Strong Ale yeast

From the first brew I’ve added a tin of LME to up the ABV. I’ve included some extra grains for a bit more complexity. I’ll hot steep the Chrystal and Munich for 30 minutes, but I’m going to cold steep the Chocolate and Roasted Barley for 24 hours. I didn’t add any extra hops first time, and thought I would include a flavour addition this time, though I guess that might be a waste given how long I plan to age the beer. I’m looking forward to trying the M42 yeast and will give it a better pitch rate this time.

The loose plan is to pitch at 18C and raise that to 21C as things are winding down. I’ll add the Dextrose around day 5. Based on my first RIS, I’ll probably leave it at primary fermentation temperature for 3 or 4 weeks total. I can dump the trub and yeast cake whenever I want to keep the wort clean. Then drop to 14C for 4 weeks before cold conditioning and bottling. I’ve got a spare pack of M42, so might use half that when I rack to the bottling bucket. Bottle at 2.0 CO2.

Brew day should be a lot of fun with all the pieces of the puzzle, and given it will be aging only a couple of months behind my first RIS I’m looking forward to comparing the two beers and how the extra ingredients play out.
I would have thought that the oxygenating debate with dried yeast was in line with the OP's original post?
 

Grmblz

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^ +1 Let's not go down the US route mod's, over zealous moderation is almost as bad as no moderation.
I was seeking clarification from Half-baked and he gave it, I may not agree with his reasoning but as far as I can tell it was all very cordial.
Surely we can agree to disagree, and question comments without the threat of big brother stomping all over the place.
I applaud your reactions to the recent trolling, good work, but to accuse us of tit for tat for what has become a relevant side issue discussion from the OP's post is imho over the top.
 

yankinoz

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You quoted the Fermentis Q&A, which I would call a reputable source (seeing as they make the stuff)
Aerating is unnecessary is not what Fermentis asserts, they quite clearly state "we do not recommend it"

"We don’t recommend aerating the wort in normal conditions" pedant or not how in real terms is this different to
We recommend people do not aerate the wort in normal conditions.

If you want to re-hydrate and or oxygenate/aerate then by all means do it, but to interpret a statement in such a fashion as to support your inclination is fraught with danger.

This advice from Fermentis should be viewed in the context of their products only of course, as different yeast manufacturing techniques will result in different requirements for the use of their products.
Lallemand (Danstar) says much the same.
 

Cloud Surfer

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Fermentation is running nicely. It’s dropped from 1.115 to 1.075 in less than 48 hours. I’m having fun with the TILT, checking the SG every few hours.

The airlock is running real hard, but no signs of impending danger. I have a blow off tube on standby, but doesn’t look like I’ll need it. I wonder if excess temperature is the main cause of explosive fermentation. I’ve got it running at 18C which might be keeping it from getting out of control.

The aroma coming out the airlock is very sweet and almost fruity. The whole room smells like it.

Anyway in a couple of days I’ll start adding the dextrose, and then hopefully I’ll finish with a nice low FG. I’ll probably ramp the temp a couple of degrees when it’s finishing to help it along. I think that’s the beauty of the TILT, being able to see what’s happening throughout the process.
 

kadmium

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Fermentation is running nicely. It’s dropped from 1.115 to 1.075 in less than 48 hours. I’m having fun with the TILT, checking the SG every few hours.

The airlock is running real hard, but no signs of impending danger. I have a blow off tube on standby, but doesn’t look like I’ll need it. I wonder if excess temperature is the main cause of explosive fermentation. I’ve got it running at 18C which might be keeping it from getting out of control.

The aroma coming out the airlock is very sweet and almost fruity. The whole room smells like it.

Anyway in a couple of days I’ll start adding the dextrose, and then hopefully I’ll finish with a nice low FG. I’ll probably ramp the temp a couple of degrees when it’s finishing to help it along. I think that’s the beauty of the TILT, being able to see what’s happening throughout the process.
Yeah tilts are good, I have mine linked to a Raspberry Pi that lets Brewfather know what I'm doing. Just bear in mind that it is really only an indicator of fermentation activity and not a true reading of SG. It is mostly inaccurate during active fermentation due to co2 bubbles moving it around, as well as Krausen distorting it's reading. Take it for more of a picture of what's happening, rather than using it as an absolute reading of SG.

But they are very useful that's for sure!

Glad to hear it's going along nicely. Also, blowoff is more a situation of how vigorous fermentation is, as well as the yeast strain. Some produce huge, explosive fermentations (Nottingham I'm looking at you) and others are more mild mannered. I have a Porter down using 'Denny's favourite' (my go to for stouts / porters) and it's a well behaved yeast. I used Imperial Dry Hop (hybrid Conan yeast) and it blew itself out of the starter flask!
 

Cloud Surfer

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Thanks, yes I read the TILT gets upset during fermentation, so I’m using it more as a trend indicator of how things are going.

So far I’m happy with this M42 yeast. The room smells great from the aroma through the airlock.
 

Cloud Surfer

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I’ve been very happy with how calm and smooth the ferment has been. I will definitely use this M42 yeast again. I think the secret was definitely pitching 4 packets.

I added the dextrose on day 4 which brings the OG to 1.121. The SG charged down to the magic RIS number of 1.030 in just 5 days of fermenting, but has seemed to hit the wall today. Airlock has completely stopped and SG is at 1.029. That’s 12.1% ABV, which is at the upper end of this yeast range, so maybe they’ve given up. If I could get just another few points out of them I’ll be very proud of them.

I’m letting the temperature free rise to 20C and I’ll hold it there for another few weeks, so plenty of time left before transfer for conditioning.
 

Cloud Surfer

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I transferred the RIS to keg today after 3 weeks in Primary. FG has been steady at 1.027 for over a week. That's about where I thought it would end, given that's now 12.3% ABV. I got to use my pressure transfer set up and keg for the first time. The whole process felt a lot calmer than previous transfers I've done, using the CO2 system to keep oxygen out of the beer and containers.

So I filled the keg to overflowing and purged the headspace a few more times, then I put it into a fridge at 10C. I'll leave it there now for at least the next 3 months, and then pressure transfer to another keg which will have the priming sugar and a small amount of yeast in it. Then I'll use a pressure gun to fill bottles from the bottling keg. I cut 20mm off the liquid tube to keep the beer as clear as possible going into the bottling keg.

It has lots of roast flavours, coffee, chocolate and vanilla. It doesn't taste overly sweet or bitter at all, as the big alcohol is holding it all together and keeping it balanced. It has great length, I can still taste it 30 minutes after a sip. I can't believe it's possible to make this stuff at home.

RIS (9).JPG


RIS (7).JPG
 

kadmium

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Nicely done. Any reason you're conditioning at 10c?
 

Cloud Surfer

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Personally I would have liked to condition at 12C to 14C, but 10C is as warm as the fridge gets, so close enough. Condition it too cold and the beer can go to sleep. Anyway a constant temperature is just as important over long periods, so a constant 10C will be ok. You know all this stuff. Did you have a different idea?
 

kadmium

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Personally I would have liked to condition at 12C to 14C, but 10C is as warm as the fridge gets, so close enough. Condition it too cold and the beer can go to sleep. Anyway a constant temperature is just as important over long periods, so a constant 10C will be ok. You know all this stuff. Did you have a different idea?
Nah I was genuinely curious cause you have experience in wine making etc I thought it was a special temp for something hahah.

It's a solid plan!
 

Cloud Surfer

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I'll tell you what a solid plan was. Pouring the test sample into the glass for a photo, and taking a sip. Then drinking the whole thing on an empty stomach before lunch.
 

kadmium

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I'll tell you what a solid plan was. Pouring the test sample into the glass for a photo, and taking a sip. Then drinking the whole thing on an empty stomach before lunch.
Thats always how my brew days go.

"Hmm, better pull a sample from the beer in the fermenter. For science.

And better Czech my Pilsner out thats lagering. Oh and also better check how the cider is aging... oops I missed my hop additions. Better have another beer while I ponder why that happened..."
 
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