Rethinking crystal percentages?

[ibu]

Hey gang,

Long time trawler, first time poster.

I've been all grain brewing for about 7 years now and am pretty happy with the beers I make; for the most part...

After a few fails (40 - 50lt tip outs on the lawn) due to me getting a bit too creative with grain bills and adjuncts (chasing the gulden draaken; I love that stuff but can't seem to come close to making it) I've pretty well followed the path well travelled and taken on the advice of the general brewing public with things you should and shouldn't do when brewing beer. I've got a raft of beers I'm happy with and tend to churn these out to fit the season/my mood.

But...after drinking a few double/triple ipa's from various establishments around the country and from new craft brewery's that have sprung up I've come to the realisation that my beers of these styles lack the silky mouthfeel and hearty maltiness that make some of the better offerings out there really shine. To state an example so people know what I'm chasing I recently travelled to Bentspoke brewery in Canberra and had a cluster 8; wow. Tasty stuff. This has me thinking it's time to get creative and break away from what I've always read and....up the crystal to over 5%?

I've tried using dark munich as a base malt, I've just brewed one which I've yet to taste that has 5% melanoiden and 5% med crystal so I'll have to see how that goes (but from the fermenter it doesn't have that maltiness/mouthfeel I'm after). So I am thinking; do these beers throw a heap of crystal in there? 15%? Abbey malt? What are they doing cause I'm certainly not doing it. I am tempted to do these things (15% crystal; dark/medium combos, abbey malt, heaps more melanoiden etc.) but don't want to tip any more beer on the lawn and am keen to hear from people who may have been at the point I am at now in the past and learned some lessons from it.

For those that feel they have brewed a top quality, hoppy but really malty/malt driven ipa/douple/triple ipa; what are you guys adding to get that flavour?

Ta

 

[GalBrew]

I think that if your latest beer has dark Munich as a base with melanoidin and crystal malts, then it probably is not going to taste very good.

 

[mtb]

+1 for the Cluster 8 at Bentspoke. I'll be following this thread for any hint to how I can replicate that mouthfeel

 

[Mardoo]

There's a Gulden Draak 9000 clone here. Might give you some idea of directions to take.

 

[black_labb]

A lot of the bigger Ipa's have quite a bit of light crystal or carapils in them to give then the body to support the hops, often more than 5%. The lighter crystals have less intense flavour ao you can use them in this way without effecting the flavour. Also think about your carbonation. A lower carbonation may help really get the right balance of flavours and smooth it out.

Yeast health could be an issue as well. There may be some harsh flavours coming from the yeast that you can't specifically pick out. It

I can't agree with galbrews blanket statement, aside from not being a stereotypical ipa malt bill there is nothing wrong with it provided the rest of the recipe suits

 

[BKBrews]

Are you messing with water chemistry as well? I've been reading that having a 2:1 Chloride:Sulfate ratio enhances the maltiness of a beer.

 

[ibu]

@GalBrew: I didn't combine the dark munich with the melanoiden and crystal; these were different brews. I'd consider it though. These are just different things I have done in the past to create a malty ipa.

Thanks for the Draak clone Mardoo; I'll have to give that a go once I get this ipa thing under wraps. Still a bit gun shy on that one after a few fails.

 

[MHB]

Crystal can be a bit of a conundrum, plenty of good UK brewers use 5-10% crystal in bitters, some more and I have seen Mild recipes with up to 30% Crystal.
As you are in Newcastle why don't you jump on to the Brewman website, register and there are lots of really good recipes in BrewBuilder.

As ye both like Gulden Draak you might like this.View attachment gulden_draak_9000_clone_-_040.pdf
Mark

Edit
Mardoo was too fast...
M

 

[ibu]

A lot of the bigger Ipa's have quite a bit of light crystal or carapils in them to give then the body to support the hops, often more than 5%. The lighter crystals have less intense flavour ao you can use them in this way without effecting the flavour. Also think about your carbonation. A lower carbonation may help really get the right balance of flavours and smooth it out.

Yeast health could be an issue as well. There may be some harsh flavours coming from the yeast that you can't specifically pick out. It

I can't agree with galbrews blanket statement, aside from not being a stereotypical ipa malt bill there is nothing wrong with it provided the rest of the recipe suits

Thanks black_labb, that's exactly what I was hoping someone to say but I can't find any info on that anywhere. I had suspected they throw a heap of crystal in there. I'mthinking I am just gonna have to bite the bullet and have a go; if it ends up too sweet then I'll rethink.

Are you messing with water chemistry as well? I've been reading that having a 2:1 Chloride:Sulfate ratio enhances the maltiness of a beer.

I might have to have a look at that too. At the moment I just add some calcium chloride

 

[ibu]

Crystal can be a bit of a conundrum, plenty of good UK brewers use 5-10% crystal in bitters, some more and I have seen Mild recipes with up to 30% Crystal.
As you are in Newcastle why don't you jump on to the Brewman website, register and there are lots of really good recipes in BrewBuilder.

As ye both like Gulden Draak you might like this.

gulden_draak_9000_clone_-_040.pdf
Mark

Edit
Mardoo was too fast...
M

Ha, yeah thanks Mark. I'm a brewman customer already; great site/service.

30% crystal? That seals it, I'm def gonna start upping that to get the taste I'm after.I've just always been hesitant after my fails and reading EVERYWHERE that crystral should be <5%.

 

[GalBrew]

@GalBrew: I didn't combine the dark munich with the melanoiden and crystal; these were different brews. I'd consider it though. These are just different things I have done in the past to create a malty ipa.

Thanks for the Draak clone Mardoo; I'll have to give that a go once I get this ipa thing under wraps. Still a bit gun shy on that one after a few fails.

Sorry, my bad. I thought it was all in the one brew! Carry on.....

 

[Vini2ton]

Have a look at Dingeman aromatic malt. Maybe that'll get you down the right track. 30% of crystal seems to me way excessive. Horses for courses.

 

[wobbly]

Are you messing with water chemistry as well? I've been reading that having a 2:1 Chloride:Sulfate ratio enhances the maltiness of a beer.

You could do worst than to have a read (if you haven't already) what Martin Bruingard has to say on the subject of Dry, Balanced and Full water profiles ranging from Very Dry or Bitter to Very Full and Malty by playing with the Sulfate to Chloride ratio of your brewing water

There is also a write up on Beersmith here:- http://beersmith.com/blog/2016/02/11/the-sulfate-to-chloride-ratio-and-beer-bitterness/ talking about what Palmer and Kaminski have to say about this in the "Water" book

One would think that if you were a "Brewery" chasing Bitterness or Maltyness then one of the first things you would be considering is your water profile as it is most likely a lot cheaper than additional grain types or more hops.

Maybe I'm wrong others may wish to comment

Cheers

w3

 

[ibu]

Have a look at Dingeman aromatic malt. Maybe that'll get you down the right track. 30% of crystal seems to me way excessive. Horses for courses.

I agree; 30% freaks me out a bit when I'm used to <5%. I threw some melanoiden in this recent batch but the aromatic might add another dimension I suppose. Thanks. I'm thinking along the lines of 11kg ale malt and 1.5kg medium crystal. Keep it simple. Hop the back out of it and aim for ~8%. If it's rubbish I might go a similar percentage of light crystal the next time.

You could do worst than to have a read (if you haven't already) what Martin Bruingard has to say on the subject of Dry, Balanced and Full water profiles ranging from Very Dry or Bitter to Very Full and Malty by playing with the Sulfate to Chloride ratio of your brewing water

There is also a write up on Beersmith here:- http://beersmith.com/blog/2016/02/11/the-sulfate-to-chloride-ratio-and-beer-bitterness/ talking about what Palmer and Kaminski have to say about this in the "Water" book

One would think that if you were a "Brewery" chasing Bitterness or Maltyness then one of the first things you would be considering is your water profile as it is most likely a lot cheaper than additional grain types or more hops.

Maybe I'm wrong others may wish to comment

Cheers

w3

This is something that I prob need to spend more time fixing; water chemistry. I'll check out that link although I'm so far off the mark from where I want to be tastewise for those bigger IPA's im feeling a little more confident now (after hearing of the amounts of crystal that some breweries use) that my dilemma may be closer to being fixed with a massive crystal whack. I'll tweak the water afterwards if need be.

 

[MartinOC]

I've just always been hesitant after my fails

Mate, EVERYONE fails initially & especially when experimenting with new stuff/techniques/gear/ideas.

Just run with it & enjoy the journey.

 

[Dan Pratt]

If you want malt character for your IPA, take your Base Ale malt + 15% Munich along with 5% light Crystal and make the water chloride high @ 75ppm keeping the sulphate around 50ppm. Mash @ 67-68c and this will leave alot more of the residual sweetness in the beer which will be understood from your final gravity being higher. You can also you ferment with a lower attenuating yeast like S04 instead of Notto or US05.

Can I say that there is one thing that I cant stand in an IPA and that is crystal malt, UNLESS, its an English IPA or a East Coast US IPA which was derived from the UK hence the malt heavy flavour. The more IPAs I make the less crystal malt gets added, the 3-5% range of a light crystal would be MAX. I have found that some think that the sweetness of and IPA is the malt when its actually the higher level of hop oils and late hop character of the IPA so you may be getting that on the pallet?

To give you an option, this is not and IPA but my ANHC 2014 Amber Ale Gold Medal beer for the bitter ale category. Its malty and hoppy!

American Amber Ale 5

OG 1052
FG 1012
ABV 5.3%
IBU 38
EBC 29

66% Ale
15% Munich
6% Medium Crystal
6% Carared
6% Flaked Oats
1% Choc Malt

Mashed @ 67c - 60mins

60min Boil

Citra @ 60m = 15ibu
Amarillo/Centennial @ 10m = 15ibu
Amarillo/Centennial @ 5m = 8ibu

Citra/Amarillo/Centennial @ Flameout for 5 min whirlpool = 4g/L and after 5 mins commence chilling.

Fermented with Us05 @ 18c

Dry Hopped with Citra/Amarillo/Centennial = 4g/L for 5days.

 

[MHB]

That 30% crystal is the highest I could find (Wheeler/Protz Brew your own real ale...) and it was in a Mild Ale, about the highest in bitter and above was 16% with most in the 5-10% range.
As Pratty said there is a lot more to the taste of a beer than just the crystal content.

I'm doing a talk on water chemistry at the HUB club in November if you are interested.
Mark

 

[Droopy Brew]

Get some Rye in there. I always find it adds silk to the mouthfeel.

 

[ibu]

Thanks everyone for the input and for the invite Mark. there were some really good tips there.

Pratty your Amber looks great; I like the look of your hop schedule.

I'll get onto a recipe for this ASAP; maybe I do need to consider water chemistry more than I do at the moment.

Cheers

 

[Coodgee]

Can I say that there is one thing that I cant stand in an IPA...

Like a blowfly to a warm glass of IPA...