Reducing Infection When Transfering To Secondary

[mckenry]

The best way to reduce the risk of anything bad happening with your beer regarding the use of 'secondary' fermentors, is to skip it all-together.
Many people - on these forums and elsewhere - have moved away from the idea of 'secondary' fermentors, for most beers and most beer styles, however much of the HB literature has not caught up yet.

If you insist on using a secondary, the best way I have found to do it is from 'tap to tap' - by connecting a bit of plastic tube to the tap of one fermentor directly to the other - then transfer the beer that way.

If anything, the 'best' time to transfer the beer is while it is still young and the yeast are active, that way their activity will help reduce the risk of infection and they will also consume any oxygen that you mix in, however transferring early tends to defeat the purpose of moving the beer off the yeast cake, if that is the logic behind you using a secondary fermentor.

So can I get an idea of how many people are doing the above?
The reason I ask is due to my process, outlined below.
1. I will fully ferment out in the one fermenter. (I never go to secondary prior to FG) Crash chill to 3C in same FV. - takes about 3 days to crash chill.
2. Then I transfer to secondary, tap to tap, with gelatin in second FV. - leave another 2 or 3 days @ 3C
3. After these 3 days I will add polyclar. Keg later that day or in the next few days.

I am a glad wrapper also.

Are people doing all these steps in the 1 FV?
What effect will that have on the slurry? - At step 2 above I harvest some slurry. If I leave everything in the 1 FV the yeast will have the gelatin in it.

interesting..
mckenry

 

[Zizzle]

http://morebeer.com/public/video/siphonstartweb.mov

 

[Bribie G]

I've never used tap to tap. I use silicone hose (which can be boiled) which is long enough to loop round inside the cube so the beer is transferred without splashing, then when the transfer is completed I flush the headspace with CO2 and crash down to -1 for about a week, then Polyclar.

Three points:

I don't do secondary fermentation; the beer goes into the sealed cube for cold conditioning and clearing after the fermentation has attenuated. I have never "secondaried" in the sense of transferring still-actively-fermenting beer and can't see what benefits if any.

I'm in two minds about cold conditioning in the primary, because the yeasts I commonly use are Wyeast 1469 and Wyeast 1056. In both cases they usually end up with a fairly firm head of floating yeast which persists, and on kegging day I end up with a lot of yeast into the keg, especially as the yeast head sinks towards the tap then starts coming through into the keg, which p$$es me off. I've noticed a huge difference in the clarity of the first half of the keg and I don't intend to go in for filtering. So I'm tempted to go back to cubing / gelatine / Polyclar which has always given me almost crystal clear beer into the keg, and crystal clear beer out of the keg from the first few glasses onwards.

The only true lagers I make are for comps, and this year I am lagering 3 of them for up to 6 months. No way would I leave a lager on a yeast cake for that long, so I am lagering in Cornies in a sort of 4 stage system: Primary at 10 degrees for about 2 weeks, then D rest at 18 degrees for two days, then turn down the fridge to -1 for a week to settle out most of the crud, fill cornie, flush and pressurise, put in cold fridge and forget about it.

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

@bribieg - man, you post some good material and this is gold.

With all the overly complicated info about lagering and cold conditioning, this is easily the best post I've seen.

Goomba

 

[mckenry]

I don't do secondary fermentation; the beer goes into the sealed cube for cold conditioning and clearing after the fermentation has attenuated. I have never "secondaried" in the sense of transferring still-actively-fermenting beer and can't see what benefits if any.

I guess this is the point. I dont do secondary fermentation either. I do use a secondary vessel for clearing. I was getting the impression from this thread that some people are only using 1 vessel all the way through from fermentation, CC, clearing agents to bottle/keg. Maybe I was reading it wrong. I just couldnt see how you could get crystal clear beer without racking off the trub at some stage prior to packaging.

 

[TmC]

I find that my beers take less time to clear up and taste better when i transfer to a second vessel, its usually around the 10-14 day mark, i only leave my vessels in the fridge for about 1-2 weeks but i noticed a difference in the clarity and the size of the yeast cake in my bottles. Also it allows me to accumulate bottles without having my brew sit on the yeast cake for too long.

 

[argon]

I guess this is the point. I dont do secondary fermentation either. I do use a secondary vessel for clearing. I was getting the impression from this thread that some people are only using 1 vessel all the way through from fermentation, CC, clearing agents to bottle/keg. Maybe I was reading it wrong. I just couldnt see how you could get crystal clear beer without racking off the trub at some stage prior to packaging.

I do this, but i filter. The odd occasion i have packaged straight from primary i get yeasty bits hanging round for a period in the keg. PITA.

 

[mwd]

I think this is when you are most likely to get an infection in is when you just rack to secondary for the purpose of clearing only. Unless of course you can purge the air with CO2 or as some do add some dextrose to get a bit of a secondary ferment going.

I am guessing due to lack of answers that nobody tries to reuse yeast cake that has been gelatined. I cannot see any reason why not but can't say I have tried it out. Suppose you could go through the process of washing the yeast after collecting.

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

The other question that needs to be asked, especially for bottlers, is "does transferring to a bottling bucket/2nd fermenter mean you are transferring to secondary?".

Just thinking that this could be a benchmark thread for newbs and those unfamiliar with 2ndary and transfer vessels.

Goomba

 

[mwd]

The other question that needs to be asked, especially for bottlers, is "does transferring to a bottling bucket/2nd fermenter mean you are transferring to secondary?".


Goomba

Not really I use a fermenter as a bottling bucket but the beer is only in there for about an hour maximum and have never had an infection go into bottles (so far).

 

[TmC]

I think i just got my first infection today, could be from poor sanitisation, i sanitised my CC vessel the night before and left it in the laundry to transfer in the morning. Was a coopers Heritage Lager, in primary for 14 days, Cold condition for 7 days. Smelt sour/bitter when bottling today, i hope i dont have to through it out.

 

[Filby]

The reason for a secondary or tertiary ferment is to get the beer off the yeast cake which has dead yeast and protein in it that can affect the flavor of the final beer. The really active yeast is still in suspension in the beer and hence the beer can continue to finish off the ferment, do a DC rest, cold condition and/or then be used for natural carbonation. The big boys (or anyone with a cylindroconical fermentation vessel) don't have any problems with sanitation as they just open up the bottom valve of the fermenter and dump the yeast down the drain or run it into the next tank to get going on the next batch.
For the average homebrewer this is a bit harder and riskier to do so most just finish the DC rest then cold condition, filter into keg and carbonate. I personally dont bother with secondary as I cold condition in the first vessel and then keg. Im not a huge lager fan so a bit of extra flavor from the yeast cake only adds to my ales .


Fil

 

[haysie]

FWIW, it has annoyed the piss out of me, however just lately I've been doing quite a few 'secondary' transfers. I've been caught on the hop for yeast, so I've needed to get to a batch of slurry before I'd normally take a beer off it, i.e. at bottling/ kegging. Needless to say, a couple of infections seem to have crept in to what were apparently batches of quite fine beer at the end of ferment... :angry: I'd like to think it is just coincidence... :unsure:

Been caught on the same yeast scenario Ralph, instead of another fermenter, I just go straight to a purged keg, I have a couple with 1/2 an inch taken off the beer out. Burp it every couple of days, gelatine it, fridge it.

 

[felten]

Has anyone actually had problems with autolysis? I have but that was on my very first brew where I fucked up a few times, and I haven't had it since.

These guys make a compelling argument, and until you actually suffer from autolysis in your beers, you should probably reconsider using a secondary exclusively.(IMO)

I didn't want to regurgitate all the info in the book in my own words, so for those that don't have the yeast book, I thought a cut and paste was in order.


^{White, C and Zainasheff, J. ''Yeast''.p. 69, 154, 155, 156.}

 

[TBird]

Hi All

I'm seeking clarification over the need for secondary fermentation and lagering. Is secondary fermentation considered to be a separate process from lagering?

What are the people advocating for "no secondary fermenting" doing when they lager?

Are they lagering the beer on the yeast cake for the usual 2 to 4 weeks (or more) and then transferring the beer to keg/bottles?

I've got a lager in the primary fermenter at the moment which has finished fermenting (and still on the yeast cake) and is currently sitting at 2 degrees. I was planning on racking it to a cube and then lagering it for a couple of weeks before kegging.

This is my normal process but after reading the above replies, I'm not sure if this is the best way to go.

Thanks and Cheers

 

[Malko]

When did you pitch the yeast? If it was on the first day then the majority of the fermentation has occurred above the preferred lager yeast fermenting temp so you are very like to get esters forming and, depending on the yeast, a whole lot of sulphur. IMO I would use a 'clean' ale yeast like US05 or Nottingham when doing a 'lager' style beer without a fermenting fridge. They are happy to ferment at lower temperatures and at 15-18deg they wont produce a lot of undesirable flavours, whereas a lager yeast at warm temperatures will produce a lot. Hopefully this batch turns out well!


Fil

I pitched as soon as the temp got to 28C which was to high i know it was to high but that was before I read up on the techniques.

I'm planning on keeping it cool for a few more days and hopefully that will allow the yeast to consume all the sugar and then start digesting the esters and sulpher, during this stage I plan to get the brew back to room temp to give it a chance to consume all the crap than I'l CC it in a temp controlled freezer at 2C for 2 - 3 days. not sure if this will get the desired result

 

[Malko]

Looks like you are well on the way Malko. I bet you are now plotting how to get a dedicated fermenting fridge and a Fridgemate temperature controller. If you aren't in a position to buy a fridge yet, a good method of temp control which I haven't seen mentioned much on the forum recently, but which I used for nearly 2 years, is to get an old dead fridge - as small as will fit your FV as you don't want too much space (try Good Guys or other stores who do a "we remove your old fridge free of charge" offer). Then if you have enough freezer space in your kitchen fridge or freezer, produce a steady supply of frozen 2L PET bottles.
Even in QLD over two summers I did ales at 19 degrees swapping the bottles in once or twice a day, and I could even do lagers down to 14 degrees in the cooler months swapping the bottles twice a day. Of course as with your present system you can't go away for a week and the system eventually sux but it's a good stop gap.

Already plotted! mwahhahhahh!
I have a fridge a freezer coming today, if I can lift the bastards, I have a commercial double door drink fridge with glass doors which will be good to keep an eye on the FV as it bubbles away without having to open the fridge every day. I plan to have 4 FV in this plus the kegs and bottles. Not sure if I'm going to have a temp control issue with all this.

 

[Malko]

My Krausen after 5 days is minimal to say the least. is that normal for a Larger that was pitched at 28C and not a starter yeast just straight from the packet 11.5g? it still bubbles the airlock every 20 seconds.

i took a Hydro reading and it was 1.034.