Really High Og With Biab

[dans6401]

Hi all,
I seem to have a recurring problem with the recipes i've been doing of late. Thought i'd purchase and try a few out of beer captured. I have followed the main extract recipes.However every time i've gone to get a post boil OG it is ALOT higher than what the recipe states. I've checked my hydrometer, seems to be right, measuring temps good, cross checked scales all good there, mixed it well.
I'm trying out BIAB and using a blender to mill the grains (so they're coming out pretty fine), not ideal but from what i've read alright. I know i might have to break it down next batch to see where i'm going wrong, but was hoping someone might have a suggestion. I'm not talking about a small difference, infact the last one i did was the westvleteran 12 which was supposed to read 1.105-1.106, but i could'nt get a reading at all because to hydrometer was sitting almost half way up the bulb. :blink:

Maybe i should get a reading from the top with a sanitised spoon but it's been fermenting away for over a week and i'm not to keen on taking the lid off. Any ideas?

 

[mxd]

could we get a recipe that your using, the OG is related to efficiency, so if you manger to extract all the sugar out of the grain and the recipe you used that person only extracted half then you will have a higher OG.

e.g for me (crap efficiency 55%) 6 kg of grain gives me 1.045, but for Bob, it might give him 1.070.

 

[dans6401]

Sure, it's happend the last couple of times. But here's the last one i did.
510g cara-munich
225g belg aromatic
200g belg buscuit
115g special b
57g brit choc
stepped for 30 mins at 65 degrees.
sparged with 3.8 litres at 65 degrees.
4.87kg extra light dry malt extract
450g belgian candi (clear) *
115g belgian candi (amber) *
170g malto dextrin
35g styrian goldings
Toped up to 15.2 litres boiled for
45 mins
7 g Hallertau hersbrucker
7 g styrian goldings
1 tsp of irish moss
Boiled 13 mins w
7 g Hallertau hersbrucker
7 g styrian goldings
Boiled 2 mins
Cooled and topped up so final volume 18.9 litres
Wyeast 1388
(* the belgian was swapped for clear= table , amber= homemade with citric acid)
This is one of a couple i've done, another had a lot less specialty malts, only about 350g from memory. It did occur that efficiency could have something to do with it, but it seemed unlikely such a small amount would make such a big difference.
Thanks

 

[goomboogo]

Dan, it's not an efficiency issue because what you're doing is not really biab. Biab generally refers to the mashing of base malt (grain) in order to extract fermentables. The process you are undertaking is extract (with specialty malts) brewing. A rough calculation on your ingredients and final volume gives an og around 1120. It is higher than you've read in the recipe but there are other factors that could lead to the higher reading. One being the wort not being thoroughly mixed.

 

[Bribie G]

BIAB means brew in a bag. So where does the bag come in here?
Does not compute :icon_cheers:

 

[dans6401]

Yeah, sorry about the title, it's a bit misleading. BIAB is how i do the speciality grains, mainly because i use the blender and it seems like a good way strain. Did try doing the AG BIAB a while back but after a few issues thought i'd step back and try to get my technique right.
It may be it's not mixed well enough, but an earlier brew i racked once it finished fermenting and thought that should mix it up, or may even fire it up again. But the reading stayed the same 1.040, so i made up another 2 litre starter (1214) and pitched that in, it looked like it was going to kick on but then stopped, still reading 1.040 so that made me think that maybe the OG was correct. Not sure what to do with that one not too keen on bottle bombs.
Thanks

 

[manticle]

So many things could be giving you high readings.

first and foremost could be malt in the tap with the OG reading.
Second could be the addition of malto-dex.
Third could be your hydrometer is out.

The stuck ferment could just be the high OG and the yeast getting lazy by eating the simple sugar first.

 

[dans6401]

Yeah. I checked the hydro and it seems right. I did think of the lazy yeast but thought pitching another large starter would help. (or does'nt that always work) Should i sanitise a soup ladle and try for a reading from the top. What would you guys do? It's been at a stable 20-21 degrees.
Thanks

 

[manticle]

It depends. If your yeast has given up because of the high ABV then pitching the same yeast probably won't help. You'll need to pitch a strain which is higher in terms of ABV tolerance and probably make an active starter.

It's getting a bit confusing though - is it high OG that concerns you or stuck ferment?

The other issue with unexpected hydrometer readings is temperature. High temps will give lower readings, low temps will give higher readings.

 

[dans6401]

It's getting a bit confusing though - is it high OG that concerns you or stuck ferment?

Yeah, think i'm confusing myself. :unsure:
Was originally about a brew i've just done, and ended up talking about another that's a couple of weeks old. Same problem different stages. So i guess the answer is both (OG and stuck ferment), and if one is causing the other. Oh well back to the drawing board. Hope i don't have to take another step back to kits.
Thanks for your help.

 

[Screwtop]

Sure, it's happend the last couple of times. But here's the last one i did.
510g cara-munich
225g belg aromatic
200g belg buscuit
115g special b
57g brit choc
stepped for 30 mins at 65 degrees.
sparged with 3.8 litres at 65 degrees.
4.87kg extra light dry malt extract
450g belgian candi (clear) *
115g belgian candi (amber) *
170g malto dextrin
35g styrian goldings
Toped up to 15.2 litres boiled for
45 mins
7 g Hallertau hersbrucker
7 g styrian goldings
1 tsp of irish moss
Boiled 13 mins w
7 g Hallertau hersbrucker
7 g styrian goldings
Boiled 2 mins
Cooled and topped up so final volume 18.9 litres
Wyeast 1388
(* the belgian was swapped for clear= table , amber= homemade with citric acid)
This is one of a couple i've done, another had a lot less specialty malts, only about 350g from memory. It did occur that efficiency could have something to do with it, but it seemed unlikely such a small amount would make such a big difference.
Thanks

FFS, where did you get this from it's going to be OG 1.100+ even if your efficiency is shithouse.

I seem to have a recurring problem with the recipes i've been doing of late.

I have followed the main extract recipes.However every time i've gone to get a post boil OG it is ALOT higher than what the recipe states.

Nothing wrong at all you are getting what you should according to the recipe and volume.

What volume is the recipe?

My fcuking head hurts :blink:

 

[MHB]

Mate without really pulling it apart and after some fast number rounding I get an OG of about 1.125 and an FG of about 1.033 (assumed about 65% extraction from the specialty malts, so the OG could have been a bit higher).

If you put that sort of a mixture into a fermenter what's happened is exactly what's going to happen.

First rule, when you're learning is its best to KISS until you have a better grasp of the fundamentals of brewing.

My fcuking head hurts :blink:

yep

MHB

 

[dexter.rose]

Yeah, think i'm confusing myself. :unsure:
Was originally about a brew i've just done, and ended up talking about another that's a couple of weeks old. Same problem different stages. So i guess the answer is both (OG and stuck ferment), and if one is causing the other. Oh well back to the drawing board. Hope i don't have to take another step back to kits.
Thanks for your help.

The real question is:
How does it taste?

 

[dans6401]

FFS, where did you get this from it's going to be OG 1.100+ even if your efficiency is shithouse.


What volume is the recipe?

My fcuking head hurts :blink:

18.9 litres
Beer Captured By Mark and Tess Szamatulski
Westvleteren 12 recipe
http://www.westvleteren12.com/
I think your head would really hurt if you had it as a session beer.

If you put that sort of a mixture into a fermenter what's happened is exactly what's going to happen.

First rule, when you're learning is its best to KISS until you have a better grasp of the fundamentals of brewing.

Sorry i've confused you too. This hasn't stuck (yet) maybe the 1388 is a better yeast for high alc.
As for KISS that's what i was trying by taking a step back to extract. I really like the Belgian beers and as i can't get my hands on one of these here in Aus, thought i'd have a crack at making some.

The real question is:
How does it taste?

Really strong. :lol: But very nice. Realise i will have to let it ferment for a while. In the book they recommend 6 weeks. Then let it age in the bottle for as long as i can.

 

[Scruffy]

First, commendabilities to you on your decision to brew such an easy beer, but sorry, I still don't know what you're doing. Taking you literally; Are you crushing and mashing the 'speciality' grains (at 65C for 30 minutes)? What do you mean by stepping in this instance? I've used 1388 and 1214 on starting gravities around 1.100 and 1.120 - they'll drop up to 75% of the sugars if you leave them long enough and warm em up towards the end, so I ended up with 1.024 (10%) and 1.034 (11.5% - 70% Attenuation) - funnily enough the Chimay (1214) handled the higher OG quite effortlessly...
A beer like the one you describe needs at least month in the fermenter and maybe 6 months in the bottle...

Never rush a big Belgian...

--edit-- removed superfluous crap

 

[MHB]

I think part of the problem is that the brew should have been made up to 19.5 L (go read page 8 of Beer Captured), that will get you a bit closer. The yield (18.9 L) is what you get out of the fermenter, including losses.

I suspect that another part of the problem might be that you aren't allowing any kettle waste, there should be some losses there, maybe around a litre of high gravity wort left in with the hop trub.
Just guessing here but I'll bet you squeezed every last drop out.
Factoring in the two above, the numbers look a lot closer to the money

Sorry i've confused you too. This hasn't stuck (yet) maybe the 1388 is a better yeast for high alc.

It may not be stuck, what I figured the FG on is the alcohol tolerance of the yeast (12-13%), the change of gravity I suggested gives a bit over 12.5% alcohol, the yeast won't go much higher and the ferment will stop.
You may have trouble if your bottle conditioning, at best it could be very slow to carb up.

MHB

Oh 13-14 ingredients isn't keeping it simple, big Belgians are a hard are to master, my next planed brew is a Quad, with 1 malt and 1 hop, just to see if I've got the basics right.

M

 

[dans6401]

Thanks MHB,
I think you've hit the nail on the head there. Might move away from the complex brews and go for something simple next. AG Barley Wine here i come.
No seriously, think i might aim for something with one or two speciality malts and hops, until i work out what the hell i'm doing.
Cheers
P.S. How'd you know i squeezed out every last drop?

 

[katzke]

You say you top up after the boil. Did you shake it up and oxygenate it well and then take the reading?

Can someone explain where the idea that fermented beer settles into layers came from? Why would you think that the final gravity will be different at the top then the bottom?