Racking To Secondary Halfway Through Ferment?

[cubbie]

im about to rack my lager, im then going to get another lager going using some of the yeast cake, is it as simple as getting a cup full and pitching that straight into the new wort?

thanks for any words of wisdom.

coz

Sure can be that simple. You can wash the yeast but to that defeats the time saving of using the yeast slurry. Last time i did I collected a cup of yeast, washed out and sanitised the fermenter then dropped the cup of yeast and fresh wort back in.

I am sure you can make it more technical, but hey just go for it.

 

[BOG]

BribieG,

You rasied an interesting point about english ales and "Dropping" the beer to secondary.

Halfway thought the ferment they add air to the wort changing the state of the yeast back to Aerobic from Anerobic (someone will know the correct name) and it changes the flavour of the beer.

It's interesting method considering we all say "don't splash". Dependant on the amount of yeast already in the beer to stop infection.




BOG

 

[buttersd70]

Some traditional english breweries used to do a 'double drop' where the beer would be racked or 'dropped' to a second fermenter after only a couple of days in primary, in order to aerate it and take it off the original shyte that had dropped to the bottom of the fermenter. Brakspear (Thames Valley) still do it and you could try it with the WYeast Thames Valley strain. Can't see any advantage in doing that with the beers we HBers make.

I stayed away from mentioning the double drop for brevity....The drop that brakspear do is done approximately 16 hours after pitching...it's just before the anaerobic (sp) phase. And it is a drop...looks to be a good 10ft from watching a video of it. Much splashing and aeration involved. It's an old technique that breaks what some consider to be one of the fundamental "rules". What it does do is get the fermentation going at a ripsnorting cracking pace, and forces certain flavour compounds to form. It does work on a HB scale....I've done several AG using this method (well, improvised) whilst using the 1275 yeast. I stopped doing it not due to problems, but chiefly because I couldn't detect any improvement to a standard 2 stage, which is less stuffing around......but that was early on in my AG's, so I might revisit it one day.

This is something I had wondered about - if there is still fermentation, there will be pressure, and I can't guarantee that I'll be able to release it every day. I may fit an airlock.

Good idea about tap-to-tap though. Cheers. :icon_cheers:

QB
Just either put the cap on, and loosen it a touch, or put a balloon over it where the cap should be. If you have a yeast that objects to top pressure, put a pinprick in the baloon.

 

[BOG]

so butters, no flavour change ?

Just for quicker fermentation you recon ?


BOG

 

[buttersd70]

so butters, no flavour change ?

Just for quicker fermentation you recon ?


BOG

well...it was pretty early on in (AG) brewing for me, when I was doing this...so didn't really have a lot to compare it to. In retrospect, I don't think I was getting enough air in, and my recipes at the time were still pretty un-tweaked as well...overcomplicated grain bills and hop schedules, which would likely mask any subtle effects. My brewing was also somewhat inconsistant at the time. One of these days I might revisit it, now that I have tweaked recipes, and something that I can directly compare to. And the quicker fermentation was offset by a longer period to drop bright.

One thing I will mention though..drop it too late in the lifecycle and you're bound to get oxidisation. Out of the 3 I did, two batches had bottles left for long enough for oxidation to show, and the third batch got drunk very young...out of the 2 that had samples left to mature, one had signs of oxidisation (which was a slight sherry flavour) after about 4 months, and the other one had no signs of oxidisation after about 3 months (which was as long as it lasted.)
So imo it's not really worth doing it on a hb scale, unless you're willing to risk the batch, and are particularly keen on experimentation.

 

[rclemmett]

well...it was pretty early on in (AG) brewing for me, when I was doing this...so didn't really have a lot to compare it to. In retrospect, I don't think I was getting enough air in, and my recipes at the time were still pretty un-tweaked as well...overcomplicated grain bills and hop schedules, which would likely mask any subtle effects. My brewing was also somewhat inconsistant at the time. One of these days I might revisit it, now that I have tweaked recipes, and something that I can directly compare to. And the quicker fermentation was offset by a longer period to drop bright.

One thing I will mention though..drop it too late in the lifecycle and you're bound to get oxidisation. Out of the 3 I did, two batches had bottles left for long enough for oxidation to show, and the third batch got drunk very young...out of the 2 that had samples left to mature, one had signs of oxidisation (which was a slight sherry flavour) after about 4 months, and the other one had no signs of oxidisation after about 3 months (which was as long as it lasted.)
So imo it's not really worth doing it on a hb scale, unless you're willing to risk the batch, and are particularly keen on experimentation.

I would have thought that process would be more about the yeasts they were using back then. As a yeast gets re-used it is less able to tolerate/produce alcohol generation by generation and needs more oxygen to complete its task. Not really a problem with the fresh yeast we have access to these days....... I'm sure it would impart a different flavour though, just not practical for your average hobbiest homebrewer.

The guy in this link can explain it better than me.
http://www.hbd.org/hbd/archive/3301.html#3301-5

 

[buttersd70]

I would have thought that process would be more about the yeasts they were using back then. As a yeast gets re-used it is less able to tolerate/produce alcohol generation by generation and needs more oxygen to complete its task. Not really a problem with the fresh yeast we have access to these days....... I'm sure it would impart a different flavour though, just not practical for your average hobbiest homebrewer.

The guy in this link can explain it better than me.
http://www.hbd.org/hbd/archive/3301.html#3301-5

Great info there, Rob. Certainly goes to explain the why of the high growth rate and more efficient fermentation thats experienced when doing this. Interestingly enough, one thing that I didn't mention, was the viability and yeast health of the collected slurry. Brewing in the 'normal' way with ripitched slurry from the dropped batch, I always had very strong, healthy fermentation, with very minimal lag time, even with low pitching rates. I didn't think overly much on it at the time, but looking back, it makes sense that the slurry from an incredibly effective fermentation/propogation would be in excellent condition.
You're probably right with the flavour being different, I tend to agree....just at the time, with inexperience and underdeveloped recipes with overcomplicated flavour profiles, I probably couldn't see the trees for the forest.
Cheers

 

[rich_lamb]

I racked a hefeweizen (top fermenting) to secondary too early once - only a few days in and still with loads of krausen.
Largely stuffed up that brew; it never fully fermented. I think that was about the last time I bothered with using a "secondary".

You notice a lot of people either do this without knowing why, or claim it allows the fermentation to complete or the yeast to drop out or whatever - but I don't see why this won't happen in the primary ?

ie. if you want to let it clarify or add dry hops, etc what does that have to do with changing fermenters?

 

[buttersd70]

Briggs can explain it better than me (and it saves typing :lol: ) (edit - excuse the crappy formatting and double spacing)

15.2.1 Principles of secondary fermentation

Secondary fermentation permits continued activity by the yeast at a reduced rate limited

by the low temperature and the lower yeast count in the beer. Traditionally after primary

fermentation the beer would pass to the conditioning or maturation vessel

and would contain 14 million yeast cells/ml of beer and about 4 of gravity (1.1%

fermentable extract). There are many temperature regimes which are subsequently

applied, and they represent compromises between promoting production of carbon

dioxide and hence providing condition to the beer and allowing the removal of

undesirable flavour compounds. The beer was cooled, traditionally to 8 C (46 F) at the

end of primary fermentation to remove most of the surplus yeast before transfer to the

warm maturation vessel. In this process the remaining yeast becomes re-suspended and

there is a small uptake of oxygen, which activates the yeast to start the slow secondary

fermentation. This results in the conversion of many unwanted flavour compounds into

flavourless products (O'Rourke, 2000).



Flocculent yeasts separate easily at the end of primary fermentation and conditions can

be adjusted such that sufficient yeast can be retained in the beer to effect the flavour

changes required in maturation (Chapter 12). Powdery yeasts, not separating effectively,

may ferment too fully in secondary fermentation and remove all residual extract and may

remain in suspension making clarification difficult. These different situations provide

constant challenges to fermentation and maturation management. In any event the yeast

must have access to fermentable carbohydrate for the process to succeed. This

carbohydrate is provided, as above, by residual gravity in the beer or by the addition of

sugar by priming or by krausening. Krausening is the addition of wort from the active

`krausen' stage of the primary fermentation usually at 510% by volume of the green

beer. In shorter secondary fermentation regimes yeast activity must be intense to achieve

carbonation, purging of the undesirable volatiles, removal of all residual oxygen and

chemical reduction of many compounds. This leads to immediate improvement of flavour

and aroma and flavour stability.

edit...bold and italic added by myself.

 

[cubbie]

I like to rack for the following reasons

a. I need to free up my fermenter
b. I don't like the thought of my beer sitting on yeast that is not working (or anything else that i introduced from the kettle, esp when I am largering) -
c. I have always believed that it would condition better (rightly or wrongly)
d. I feel that when I bulk prime it is easier to avoid introducing excess yeast etc when dumping from a secondary to my bulk prime vessel
e. I have always done it.

 

[Bribie G]

30 minutes ago:

Racked to smaller fermenter (took 90 seconds) with smaller headspace. Note tube outside tap not inside. Still some slight fermentation (9 days) which will flush the headspace. I'll leave it at 22 degrees for two days for a diacetyl rest then crash chill and go to Sydney for 10 days, should be pure nectar when I return.



I collected two Coopers half-pets of yeast and will crash chill them shortly and put the dear old Nottingham to sleep till next brew.