Q Re Sanitization

[bum]

You have chosen to ignore all posts from: pyrobrewer.

I clicked 'View this post" to see that.

 

[manticle]

I'm gonna do a pictorial thread using a little 9L brew and I'm gonna break every freakin rule known to clean brewing - I'll probably even put a few scoops of backyard dirt into the fermenter before I "sanitise" it with hot tap water.

I bet ya I can make a perfect beer using only hot tap water (65C-ish) as a sanitizer from go to whoa, I'll even make the starter in an unsanitised container and tap water.

Probably, just to cap it off - completely open fermentation in my manky fridge.

B)

Which will prove (if it works) that you made an uninfected beer using hot tap water and some dirt (or that you don't mind infected beer). It won't prove that hot tap water is an effective sanitiser or that healthy yeast will knock out any chance of infection.

If it works for you then great Nick. I have no problem with you sanitising/not sanitising and if you've never had an infection then why change? I have and throwing away beer due to infection (escpecially AG beer) is kind of upsetting so I endeavour to do everything I can to avoid them.

I've said it before - you reached your conclusions after many years of brewing and working out what is right for you. Fine and dandy. It's a bit much to suggest that someone who is entirely new to brewing follow the same path immediately without your experience in how it works for them.
I used to be a lot more laissez-faire about my sanitation practices. Your experience told you you can afford to relax. Mine has told me I need to be more anal.

 

[hefevice]

i did a haccp traing course 6 or so months ago and was told that there is like 1 or 2 types of very nasty bacteria that can with stand extremely high temps (like a few hundred degrees) at these temps they lay dormant, like a normal nasty under cold temps. they are pretty rare, and may have nothing to do with brewing, and obviously nick u have never come across them. it fks me maybe even all the chemicals in the world may have no effect, dunno. however i do have a clear memory of the lecturer telling us about them but i dont recall what there name was, and cant be arsed gooling/wiki them.

cheers
matt

Clostridium Botulinum, which produces botulinium toxin causing Botulism when injested. Problem typically comes from spores, that need to be heated to over 120C to kill. Requires an anaerobic environment (no oxygen) and doesn't like low pH.

Slight risk for no chill if there is a long delay before yeast is pitched, but more likely than not the low pH of the wort would be enough to prevent any damage (I've not verified this though). Further, hops are also effective and retarding growth of gram positive bacteria. Effectively, the chacteristics wort and fermenting beer naturally inhibit Botulinum (unless you've _really_ screwed something up). This has been done to death already on the forum.

Yeast will further drop the pH giving protection, which is why Nick is absolutely right about the importance of pitching good healthy yeast (preferably into well oxygenated wort) as soon as possible. Where I differ is that I chose to take other precautions as well.

 

[Hatchy]

I'm gonna do a pictorial thread using a little 9L brew and I'm gonna break every freakin rule known to clean brewing - I'll probably even put a few scoops of backyard dirt into the fermenter before I "sanitise" it with hot tap water.

I bet ya I can make a perfect beer using only hot tap water (65C-ish) as a sanitizer from go to whoa, I'll even make the starter in an unsanitised container and tap water.

Probably, just to cap it off - completely open fermentation in my manky fridge.

B)

I wish you & yr "beer" the best of luck.

Is anyone else wondering how this thread made it to a 3rd page?

 

[Screwtop]

In the interests of newbs especially, can a mod please delete this thread. Honestly this has gone to the dogs. Some people may choose not to sanitise, that's fine, continue if you want. But......cleanliness and sanitisation is a basic requirement for brewing and any food production. We really need to be responsible here. I don't care what individuals think/believe they can do whatever they want, but we don't need this sort of crap to be purported on AHB.

This is a real shame!!!

Screwy

 

[pyrobrewer]

In the interests of newbs especially, can a mod please delete this thread. Honestly this has gone to the dogs. Some people may choose not to sanitise, that's fine, continue if you want. But......cleanliness and sanitisation is a basic requirement for brewing and any food production. We really need to be responsible here. I don't care what individuals think/believe they can do whatever they want, but we don't need this sort of crap to be purported on AHB.

This is a real shame!!!

Screwy

Second

Quite right

 

[phinnsfotos]

Third

 

[AndrewQLD]

Some of the advice here is bordering on the ridiculous, proper sanitation is paramount to producing good consistent beer. At judging level I have tasted entries that were quite infected in several categories and at the end of the day it came as no surprise that these entries were from the same brewer, and that brewer had no idea his beers were so bad. As was pointed out earlier, infections can build up over time and the brewer doesn't always notice them until pointed out by someone else.

Andrew

 

[pyrobrewer]

Some of the advice here is bordering on the ridiculous, proper sanitation is paramount to producing good consistent beer. At judging level I have tasted entries that were quite infected in several categories and at the end of the day it came as no surprise that these entries were from the same brewer, and that brewer had no idea his beers were so bad. As was pointed out earlier, infections can build up over time and the brewer doesn't always notice them until pointed out by someone else.

Andrew

is the motion carried?

 

[PostModern]

Rather than delete it, I'll just close this thread.

The argument is going nowhere but circles, both sides of the debate have made their point. At this stage in our collective knowledge on the subject of brewing, best practice the world over is to sanitise all cold-side containers, ie everything after the kettle. This is done in home breweries and all viable commercial breweries and not because of paranoia, but because wort is a desirable energy source for food spoilage organisms, some of which can make us very ill, some of which will just ruin the beer.

Whether "hot tap water" is enough to sanitise containers destined to hold unfermented wort satisfactorily is possibly debatable. From my own long ago read about this topic, food can be kept at these temperatures, but I don't think food put into containers cleaned only with 65C water would remain sanitary for long unless the temperature is maintained. ie, hot, not boiling, temperature will inhibit growth of spoilage organisms, but will not destroy their spores.

Clean your gear, brewers!

So, motion carried, with amendment:

Thread closed.