Q Re Sanitization

[marksfish]

Empty fermenters spite the God(s) of Beer. Don't be blasphemous - while bottling you should be brewing.

Beerviticus 2:12

amen.

 

[thesunsettree]

Didn't say you have to accept their judgement.

If you are happy with what you brew, then of course, fk what everyone else thinks.

However, I'm a bit twisted in that I am constantly seeking to learn and brew better beer, and I know that my palate is not experienced enough to pick up (and possibly learn from) the possible flaws in the beer I brew. It's amazing the number of times that I have not noticed a particular flavour (good or bad) in a beer until someone has pointed it out to me. Then, when you know what you are looking for, you wonder how the hell you managed to miss that particular aspect in the first place.

Further, even it your palate was experienced, it is almost impossible psychologically to be completely detached about something you have laboured to produce.

I'll give a practical example - another member of this forum happens to have a particularly amazing palate. He has tasted by stock Hefeweizen a number of times, and given useful feedback. I gave him a taste of a batch I was particularly proud of and he commented that it tasted more alcoholic than last time. When the keg of that beer blew, there was about 1kg of ice in the bottom as the temperature probe of my kegorator was in the wrong place. I hadn't noticed the difference at all due to the psychological bias indicated above.

Just noticed you're near Brisbane; come along to a BABBS meeting http://www.babbrewers.com/ and you just might meet him!

Edit: BABBS pimp in last sentence.

thats fair enough, i can see ur point. i just wouldnt like to get to a point where i was brewing for other peoples tastes, thats all i was getting at :icon_cheers:

cheers
matt

 

[goomboogo]

This is the bit I most like," If you still feel the need to rinse, then go ahead if it makes you feel better, but use either preboiled water or some no-name beer in a can. (Beer produced by some of America's larger brewing companies is packaged using sterile filling techniques and is pasteurized. Clean and sanitize the can tops before pouring beer as a rinse solution.)

What do you clean and sanitise the beer can tops with prior to use; perhaps beer from another can. But then what do you use to clean and sanitise the top of this beer can?

 

[Brewme]

Thanks guys for your input.

I was led to believe that Sydney water was the finest water in the world. Also the bloke in my local HBS said it was ok to top up the fermenter with tap water as the yeast these days had a better tolerence to chlorine etc.

Thanks to the advice from this forum, I shall rectify my shortcomings.

Cheers

 

[bum]

I was led to believe that Sydney water was the finest water in the world.

Replace the word "water" with pretty much anything else and I'd expect you to have been told the same.

 

[Nick JD]

Healthy, fecund yeast will overcome awful water easily.

Old, sick yeast is like an AIDS sufferer - they die of a simple bacterial infection.

IM sometimes HO, infected brews are nearly always the result of suspect yeast innoculation.

 

[MHB]

hefevice, i can follow everthing ur saying except for

"I certainly don't trust my own palate when trying to evaluate my own beer"

why the fk not?!??!
i brew for me, surely others do too. sure we all dont want to brew shit, but brew for ones own contentment/consumption... surely

cheers
matt

It's called "Brewery Mouth" (among other things) and it's sent small brewers broke before today. Infections or other flavour problems can build up slowly over time, often the brewer who tastes the beer regularly doesn't notice the change, it's so gradual.

Anyone who wants to improve their brewing can benefit from impartial outside tasters giving unbiased appraisals of their beer. Best reason there is for putting beer into comps!

I think all the big brewers have expert tasters.

MHB

 

[manticle]

Healthy, fecund yeast will overcome awful water easily.

Old, sick yeast is like an AIDS sufferer - they die of a simple bacterial infection.

IM sometimes HO, infected brews are nearly always the result of suspect yeast innoculation.

How would you know? You've never had one.

 

[Hatchy]

How would you know? You've never had one.

Never had an infected brew or never had an AIDS Sufferer?

 

[hefevice]

Thanks guys for your input.

I was led to believe that Sydney water was the finest water in the world.

Other than the odd Giardia and Cryptosporidium outbreak, yes. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1998_Sydney_water_crisis. Also, the water is only as good as the pipes carrying it allow.

Also the bloke in my local HBS said it was ok to top up the fermenter with tap water as the yeast these days had a better tolerence to chlorine etc.

Which sounds to me reason enough to avoid said LHBS. As indicated in my post, issue is not yeast surviving chlorine, it's yeast turning it into unpleasantly flavoured Chlorophenols.

Thanks to the advice from this forum, I shall rectify my shortcomings.

Cheers

Or better still..."Thanks to the advice from this forum, I shall continue to brew consistent and high quality beers."

 

[Screwtop]

IM sometimes HO

:lol: points for that :lol:

Screwy

 

[gunbrew]

Interesting to see how everyone sanitises.

After each brew I clean out the fermenter with the hose and a non scrach type sponge.
Then I put in a few litres of boiling water, move to the backyard and shake it round making sure that the hot water does not get me when it shoots out the airlock hole or blows the lid off with steam.
also holdong the fermenter various ways and upside down so super hot water touches everywere.
I repeat this 3 or 4 times and make sure I let water through the tap each time.
Cleaning finished.

I am up to my 26th brew, 20 kits a few partials and 2 all grain.
This method has worked for me for the last 20 or so brews since I stopped using various sanitisers, had tried 5% bleach, nappy san and a brew shop sanitiser.
I like to use no chemical sanitisers.
Until I have a problem using this boiling water method, it will be my preferred.
Cheers.

 

[Nick JD]

How would you know? You've never had one.

I'm gonna do a pictorial thread using a little 9L brew and I'm gonna break every freakin rule known to clean brewing - I'll probably even put a few scoops of backyard dirt into the fermenter before I "sanitise" it with hot tap water.

I bet ya I can make a perfect beer using only hot tap water (65C-ish) as a sanitizer from go to whoa, I'll even make the starter in an unsanitised container and tap water.

Probably, just to cap it off - completely open fermentation in my manky fridge.

B)

 

[daemon]

Nick JD: Sanitisation helps to reduce the odds of an infection, although hot water may be working for you now who's to say that you won't have problems in the future? It's a bit like the argument "I have a rock that prevents aliens from abducting me and since I haven't been abducted it must be working!".

Hot water may reduce the chances of an infection down to say 5% but a good sanitiser is probably under 1%. For a small cost per brew isn't it worth trying to ensure better odds? To me it is.

I'm not worried by the chemical content, what's used in home brewing pales in comparison to some of the commercially grown produce you buy at the supermarkets. Most no-rinse sanitisers break down with the change of pH from the wort anyway.

 

[Nick JD]

...who's to say that you won't have problems in the future?

22 years of making beer without using sanitizing chemicals.

 

[pyrobrewer]

22 years of making beer without using sanitizing chemicals.

I dont want to appear to be picking on this guy but WHAT!!!!

How does this help anyone new to brewing????

Why would anyone be seemingly proud of poor hygiene. Its not a badge of honour its a sign of lunacy.

No wonder he has loads of esters in his ale, as well as P.damonosus L.brevis L.casei acetobacters Fusarium Trichoderma s.diastaticus s.delbrekeii P.membranifaciens P.anomala k.apiculata and ferrets to catch the rabbits to name a possible few

 

[stm]

How does this help anyone new to brewing????

Mmmmm, not sure how any of these posts are useful to a new brewer and/or kit brewer. To summarise:

1. Sydney tap water is perfectly fine for topping up a fermenter to 23L and will produce a perfectly drinkable beer, assuming your other brewing practices are reasonable (including a healthy and good-sized yeast pitch).

2. It is a good idea to use a no rinse sanitiser prior to filling the fermenter. It is pointless to rinse it out with tap water (it's no rinse!) but probably not fatal to the beer (because you are topping up with tap water anyway).

 

[Nick JD]

You have chosen to ignore all posts from: pyrobrewer.

 

[Nick JD]

Nick JD: Sanitisation helps to reduce the odds of an infection, although hot water may be working for you now who's to say that you won't have problems in the future? It's a bit like the argument "I have a rock that prevents aliens from abducting me and since I haven't been abducted it must be working!".

Hot water may reduce the chances of an infection down to say 5% but a good sanitiser is probably under 1%. For a small cost per brew isn't it worth trying to ensure better odds? To me it is.

I'm not worried by the chemical content, what's used in home brewing pales in comparison to some of the commercially grown produce you buy at the supermarkets. Most no-rinse sanitisers break down with the change of pH from the wort anyway.

You guys really need to read people's post before you comment. You are commenting on an "experiment" I proposed to illustrate that even a sanitised fermenter is a race for dominance by the yeast. Those who've fucked up a no chill will relate to this.

I do not use hot tap water to sanitise my fermenter - get real. I keep the thing meticulously clean and just before introducing wort it gets a 2L of boiling water shaken so steam shoots out the bung hole.

Guess what? 22 years of successful brewing. Use all the no rinse you need - my method works. New brewers - use all the startsan you want. I don't - you can.

All the knowledge in the world about microbial activity doesn't give them the ability to withstand 90 degree water for 30 seconds. Find me a bacteria/yeast cell that can and it can have my wort.

Put your hand into 90 degree water for 30 seconds and see how many of your cells can live and how deep the burn becomes. I think it's called a 3rd degree burn ... bacteria are not that strong. Some forms of them are - but your yeast will nail them.

 

[thesunsettree]

You guys really need to read people's post before you comment. You are commenting on an "experiment" I proposed to illustrate that even a sanitised fermenter is a race for dominance by the yeast. Those who've fucked up a no chill will relate to this.

I do not use hot tap water to sanitise my fermenter - get real. I keep the thing meticulously clean and just before introducing wort it gets a 2L of boiling water shaken so steam shoots out the bung hole.

Guess what? 22 years of successful brewing. Use all the no rinse you need - my method works. New brewers - use all the startsan you want. I don't - you can.

All the knowledge in the world about microbial activity doesn't give them the ability to withstand 90 degree water for 30 seconds. Find me a bacteria/yeast cell that can and it can have my wort.

Put your hand into 90 degree water for 30 seconds and see how many of your cells can live and how deep the burn becomes. I think it's called a 3rd degree burn ... bacteria are not that strong. Some forms of them are - but your yeast will nail them.

i did a haccp traing course 6 or so months ago and was told that there is like 1 or 2 types of very nasty bacteria that can with stand extremely high temps (like a few hundred degrees) at these temps they lay dormant, like a normal nasty under cold temps. they are pretty rare, and may have nothing to do with brewing, and obviously nick u have never come across them. it fks me maybe even all the chemicals in the world may have no effect, dunno. however i do have a clear memory of the lecturer telling us about them but i dont recall what there name was, and cant be arsed gooling/wiki them.

cheers
matt