Q Re Sanitization

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Brewme

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After every brew I thoroughly wash, rinse, sometimes sterilize with SO2, rinse again and finally sanitize the carboy with a no-rinse sanitizer and let it air dry. Before I use the carboy for the next brew, I give it a quick rinse with cold tap water.

So much has been written about using tap water to rinse carboys and utensils. The recommendation is to use cooled boiled water.

The norm, using a kit brew, is to top up the carboy to 23 litres using cold/hot water to achieve the desired temperature.

So, if you use cold water from the tap, are you un-sanitizing the carboy as you make the brew?

I'm sure not too many people boil about 18 litres of water, wait for it to cool or use a coiled copper tube, hooked up to a tap, to cool the water.

That's going a bit overboard.

You would be surprised how much misty saliva is around you when you speak. How many home brewers use a face mask when brewing?

I'm sure the Monks didn't boil any water to make their mead back in old times.

I have always used ordinary tap water and always ended up with a palatable beer.

Sanitization is one thing, extremes are another.

Any comments
 
I don't recall ever seeing anyone suggest that you use boiled water for rinsing. And even if you did you wouldn't need 18L.

This arguement you're trying to start is pretty dumb.

And I'd also suggest your pre-fermenting process is pretty weak. You think rinsing off no rinse sanitiser (even if it is old) is the best idea in the world? Seems to defeat the purpose to me. I'd give it a tub too.
 
What sanitizer are you using? If its no rinse, then when you finish with the carboy, why not clean it thoroughly, give a rinse with your sanitiser and let it dry, then before racking your beer to it, rinse with hot water to remove any dust particles etc then rinse with your NO RINSE santiser and then rack your beer straight onto it.. No probs.

I use Starsan (no rinse sanitiser and that is the method I use)

Cheers
 
I don't recall ever seeing anyone suggest that you use boiled water for rinsing. And even if you did you wouldn't need 18L.

This arguement you're trying to start is pretty dumb.

And I'd also suggest your pre-fermenting process is pretty weak. You think rinsing off no rinse sanitiser (even if it is old) is the best idea in the world? Seems to defeat the purpose to me. I'd give it a tub too.


I am currently looking at an old 'home brewing' book titled 'John Cook's Brew Your Own Beer - A Practical Guide To Home Brewing' which makes references to rinsing off with boiled water.

As far as 18L goes, that would be roughly the amount of water to use to top up to the 23L mark in the carboy, not just for rinsing.

Your reply, "This arguement you're trying to start is pretty dumb." is pretty dumb in itself. I am not trying to start an argument. I am just trying to get responses from other brewers who may do, have done, experienced, seen, read about or heard what I have stated.

I didn't say that my rinsing was the 'best idea in the world'. I indicated my method works for me.

I don't know how you are able to suggest that my 'pre-fermenting' process is 'pretty weak'. I have not described how I prepare any of the ingredients prior to the fermenting stage.

I have included a link re rinsing with boiled water....See the paragraph titled 'To Rinse Or Not To Rinse'.

http://www.realbeer.com/jjpalmer/cleaning.html

I'm sure there are more.

Cheers
 
After every brew I thoroughly wash, rinse, sometimes sterilize with SO2, rinse again and finally sanitize the carboy with a no-rinse sanitizer and let it air dry. Before I use the carboy for the next brew, I give it a quick rinse with cold tap water.

So much has been written about using tap water to rinse carboys and utensils. The recommendation is to use cooled boiled water.

The norm, using a kit brew, is to top up the carboy to 23 litres using cold/hot water to achieve the desired temperature.

So, if you use cold water from the tap, are you un-sanitizing the carboy as you make the brew?

I'm sure not too many people boil about 18 litres of water, wait for it to cool or use a coiled copper tube, hooked up to a tap, to cool the water.

That's going a bit overboard.

You would be surprised how much misty saliva is around you when you speak. How many home brewers use a face mask when brewing?

I'm sure the Monks didn't boil any water to make their mead back in old times.

I have always used ordinary tap water and always ended up with a palatable beer.

Sanitization is one thing, extremes are another.

Any comments

Pretty sure you mean Na2S2O5, but anyway.

So you want to sanitise with a no rinse sanitiser before you store away to air dry...................ok :blink: suppose that's not extreme. Hey look, if the Monks didn't use sanitiser then why should you, go for it, just use water. Should you experience an infection sometime, just use the search function, it might bring this thread up again for you.

Screwy
 
My browser is giving me issue in regards to quoting and editing so please understand this reply is more curt than usual. Each line is in response to a line of yours.

Book hasn't been in print since 1976. I'm guessing there's plenty of dud advice in there.

Plenty of kit/extract brewers pre-boil their brewing water.

Your original rhetoric against this issue is strong. If you aren't trying to be provocative then I apologise (but will refuse to believe you).

You did ask for comments. By your own admission you say you rinse off no rinse sanitiser.

Yeah, because I'm clearly talking about (and criticising) everything you've ever done prior to each brew - not talking exclusively about sanitation as per the ******* context. You are trying to start arguments and you are pretty dumb.

The paragraph that starts with "When the chemical sanitizers mentioned in this article are used at the recommended concentration they do not need to be rinsed off prior to using the equipment."?
 
My browser is giving me issue in regards to quoting and editing so please understand this reply is more curt than usual. Each line is in response to a line of yours.

f**k it, I'm having the same problem... I just lost my three paragraph post and I can't remember what I typed!!!! Did you just upgrade to a newer version of mozilla firefox, bum?
 
in short, don't worry about the water... as long as you are in an area with relatively low levels of chlorine, boiling is not essential and the no rinse does the trick. I just put the hose on hard spray and spray everything off, then no rinse sanitise and let air dry NO RINSE!
 
Yeah, I did just upgrade Firefox. Very annoying. Hopefully there's a bugfix pretty quick.

BTW, sanitisers don't work on surfaces that aren't already clean, Siborg. Your method might be working for you at the moment but not having an actual cleaning element of your process will catch up with you at some point. Excuse me if I've misread you.
 
What sanitizer are you using? If its no rinse, then when you finish with the carboy, why not clean it thoroughly, give a rinse with your sanitiser and let it dry, then before racking your beer to it, rinse with hot water to remove any dust particles etc then rinse with your NO RINSE santiser and then rack your beer straight onto it.. No probs.

I use Starsan (no rinse sanitiser and that is the method I use)

Cheers


G'day,

Thanks for your reply.

I must admit I do spend a little too much time cleaning my equipment. A chore which I hate.

The sanitizer I got is one from the local HBS which contains Phosphoric Acid and is a no rinse type.

Have read many good reports about Starsan and is on my shopping list.

Do you use a spray bottle with the Starsan or add it to the carboy with a few litres of water?

Thanks again
 
Yeah, I did just upgrade Firefox. Very annoying. Hopefully there's a bugfix pretty quick.

BTW, sanitisers don't work on surfaces that aren't already clean, Siborg. Your method might be working for you at the moment but not having an actual cleaning element of your process will catch up with you at some point. Excuse me if I've misread you.


Oh yeah... I did put that in the post that I lost... I use Brewcraft's brewclean spray on stuff. It has no detergent, but works great. Just spray it on, give it a min then rinse it off with the hose, or scrub off with a soft cloth if needed. And a little unscented bleach occasionally, the home brand El Cheapo stuff.

oh and click show html source on the top of the reply box... just remember to hit save html before you go to post!
 
G'day,

Thanks for your reply.

I must admit I do spend a little too much time cleaning my equipment. A chore which I hate.

The sanitizer I got is one from the local HBS which contains Phosphoric Acid and is a no rinse type.

Have read many good reports about Starsan and is on my shopping list.

Do you use a spray bottle with the Starsan or add it to the carboy with a few litres of water?

Thanks again

I always have a spray bottle of starsan to spray surfaces that come in contact with beer both fermented and unfermented. Prior to racking the wort into the fermenter, I ensure the fermenter is very clean (I use PBW) and then I add about 1.5ml of starsan with 1 L of tapwater and put the fermenter lid on and shake it to create the foam which coats the surface and sanitises it. After 10 Min I pour the excess sanitiser, and as much foam as I can, out of the fermenter and rack the wort into it and pitch when chilled to correct temp (my chilling device only allows me to get down to ambient water temp, about 28 C).

I have had a few infections in my time, and I have tried a few different sanitising methods . This method has worked the best for ME!. Excellent advice from a previous post in the fact that sanitisers only work on clean surfaces. Remember we are sanitising, not sterilising!!

Hope this helps!!! ;)

Cheers
 
Good old Nappi-san ( non scented ) either homebrand.aldi, black&gold is your best and cheapest for doing a clean up..then use star-san to sanitize before brewing

Nappi-san will remove the gunk and clean everything and will give a good level of sanitization,

Star-san is perfect for pre-brew sanitization
 
My browser is giving me issue in regards to quoting and editing so please understand this reply is more curt than usual. Each line is in response to a line of yours.

Book hasn't been in print since 1976. I'm guessing there's plenty of dud advice in there.

Plenty of kit/extract brewers pre-boil their brewing water.

Your original rhetoric against this issue is strong. If you aren't trying to be provocative then I apologise (but will refuse to believe you).

You did ask for comments. By your own admission you say you rinse off no rinse sanitiser.

Yeah, because I'm clearly talking about (and criticising) everything you've ever done prior to each brew - not talking exclusively about sanitation as per the ******* context. You are trying to start arguments and you are pretty dumb.

The paragraph that starts with "When the chemical sanitizers mentioned in this article are used at the recommended concentration they do not need to be rinsed off prior to using the equipment."?


To 'bum'

This is the whole section (For the readers)


To Rinse Or Not To Rinse

When the chemical sanitizers mentioned in this article are used at the recommended concentration they do not need to be rinsed off prior to using the equipment. Brewing equipment does not even need to be allowed to drip dry if the stated concentrations are used. Simply allow the majority to drain off and then use the sanitized items. If you still feel the need to rinse, then go ahead if it makes you feel better, but use either preboiled water or some no-name beer in a can. (Beer produced by some of America's larger brewing companies is packaged using sterile filling techniques and is pasteurized. Clean and sanitize the can tops before pouring beer as a rinse solution.)

Tap water is not an acceptable solution for rinsing because it contains bacteria. In fact, the practice of rinsing with tap water negates any prior sanitation measures. Hot water in most homes is not hot enough to guarantee sanitization of the pipes between the water heater and the faucet. There are likely to be several areas where conditions are right for minimal levels of microorganisms to grow. These levels are not dangerous, but they can result in a spoiled batch of beer. To be safe, always boil the water with which you intend to rinse. The variety of cleaning and disinfecting methods available to today's homebrewer can ensure complete sanitization at every step of the brewing process. The most common sanitizing agents available are chlorine bleach and iodophor. These are the easiest to use and are effective on all brewing equipment. Sanitizing bottles can be better accomplished using heat, either in your oven or dishwasher. We hope the other methods presented here have given you options that can help in your particular homebrewery. A good understanding of the various sanitation methods should save you a lot of time and frustration in your pursuit of the perfect batch.

Hence my topic.

I did state the book was old. Some of the advice may be outdated but certainly not 'dud' as you put it.

I'm sure a lot of brewers, including myself, get a lot of info and advice from these forums to correct their shortcomings.

Your Reply: "Yeah, because I'm clearly talking about (and criticising) everything you've ever done prior to each brew - not talking exclusively about sanitation as per the ******* context. You are trying to start arguments and you are pretty dumb."

You are either psychic or have a crystal ball to know everything I've ever done prior to each brew.

I didn't know it was permissable to use the full 'F' word in this forum.

I strongly believe that you are the one trying to start an argument and that you are the dumb one here, whether pretty or not.
 
After every brew I thoroughly wash, rinse, sometimes sterilize with SO2, rinse again and finally sanitize the carboy with a no-rinse sanitizer and let it air dry. Before I use the carboy for the next brew, I give it a quick rinse with cold tap water.

So much has been written about using tap water to rinse carboys and utensils. The recommendation is to use cooled boiled water.

If you use cold water, you will still make beer. However, you still run a higher risk of infection due to possible microbe load in the water. If you want to lower this risk and get more consistent results, rinse with cool boiled water, or better still, use a no rinse sanitiser as already recommended by others in this thread (I use StarSan with good results, Iodiphor is also good). One of the advantages of StarSan is it forms a foam which will kill microbes. It is perfectly safe to rack onto the foam.

The norm, using a kit brew, is to top up the carboy to 23 litres using cold/hot water to achieve the desired temperature.

So, if you use cold water from the tap, are you un-sanitizing the carboy as you make the brew?

I'm sure not too many people boil about 18 litres of water, wait for it to cool or use a coiled copper tube, hooked up to a tap, to cool the water.

That's going a bit overboard.

OK, now we are on a different subject, brewing liquor. Again, if you used cold water for top up, you will still make beer. Will it be consistently good beer? Maybe not. Again, you run the risks of increased bacterial load as indicated above (only substantially more so due to the increased volume).

The other issue is chlorination. If your water is chlorinated with gas, then boiling will drive off any chlorine. If you are unfortunate enough live in an area where the council uses chloramines, then the only way to get rid of these is filtering and perhaps treatment with Metabisulphites. The risk with chlorine is production of chlorophenols during fermentation (medicinal flavour) which has a very low taste threshold.

In the end, its all about risk vs return. If you are happy to accept a higher risk of infection or off flavours in your beer and believe that the methods to avoid the risk are too drastic given the likelihood, then go ahead and use untreated cold tap water.

You would be surprised how much misty saliva is around you when you speak. How many home brewers use a face mask when brewing?

I'm sure the Monks didn't boil any water to make their mead back in old times.

Saliva is only one worry. However, it's pretty easy to take measures that will prevent dust and falling particles (like saliva) from falling into the wort without using a face mask. I don't wear a face mask, but I do wear gloves when handling anything that has been sanitised.

Monks may or may not have boiled water to make their mead - I don't know, I wasn't there. However who is to say every batch they made was clean from infection?

I have always used ordinary tap water and always ended up with a palatable beer.

You have indeed been lucky. Either that, or you do have fermentation issues, but are not detecting them. Best way to confirm this is to enter competitions, or join a homebrew club and have your beer evaluated dispassionately by people with experienced palates. Mates are not always a good source of this feedback. I certainly don't trust my own palate when trying to evaluate my own beer, and try to get unbiased feedback whenever possible.

Sanitization is one thing, extremes are another.

One man's extreme is another man's minimum standard.

Any comments

The problem with this debate (and I suspect the reason Bum reacted the way he did), is that there is no black or white absolute answer. As I have tried to indicate above, it is all about what level of consistency and excellence you are aiming for in your beer vs the effort you are willing to put it, and therefore what risks you are willing to accept.

Having read through the thread, the advice in the book is actually quite good. However, Bum was quite right to be concerned about the veracity of advice from a book of that vintage; there are some absolute shockers about.

The other simple step you can take to lower the risk of infection and off flavours in your beer is to pitch the correct amount of healthy yeast. The faster you can start a vigorous fermentation, the less likely it is for any microbes that may have been picked up to get a foot hold. The main weapons provided by the yeast are lowering of pH, consumption of fuel (sugars) and production of alcohol.

Hope this has been useful.
 
hefevice, i can follow everthing ur saying except for

"I certainly don't trust my own palate when trying to evaluate my own beer"

why the fk not?!??!
i brew for me, surely others do too. sure we all dont want to brew shit, but brew for ones own contentment/consumption... surely

cheers
matt
 
hefevice, i can follow everthing ur saying except for

"I certainly don't trust my own palate when trying to evaluate my own beer"

why the fk not?!??!
i brew for me, surely others do too. sure we all dont want to brew shit, but brew for ones own contentment/consumption... surely

cheers
matt

:)

Didn't say you have to accept their judgement.

If you are happy with what you brew, then of course, fk what everyone else thinks.

However, I'm a bit twisted in that I am constantly seeking to learn and brew better beer, and I know that my palate is not experienced enough to pick up (and possibly learn from) the possible flaws in the beer I brew. It's amazing the number of times that I have not noticed a particular flavour (good or bad) in a beer until someone has pointed it out to me. Then, when you know what you are looking for, you wonder how the hell you managed to miss that particular aspect in the first place.

Further, even it your palate was experienced, it is almost impossible psychologically to be completely detached about something you have laboured to produce.

I'll give a practical example - another member of this forum happens to have a particularly amazing palate. He has tasted by stock Hefeweizen a number of times, and given useful feedback. I gave him a taste of a batch I was particularly proud of and he commented that it tasted more alcoholic than last time. When the keg of that beer blew, there was about 1kg of ice in the bottom as the temperature probe of my kegorator was in the wrong place. I hadn't noticed the difference at all due to the psychological bias indicated above.

Just noticed you're near Brisbane; come along to a BABBS meeting http://www.babbrewers.com/ and you just might meet him!

Edit: BABBS pimp in last sentence.
 
Empty fermenters spite the God(s) of Beer. Don't be blasphemous - while bottling you should be brewing.

Beerviticus 2:12
 
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