Protein Rests

[_HOME_BREW_WALLACE_]

Another handy thing is doughing in to water in the 50s means you don't get doughballs. Dunno why - below barleyz gelatinisation temp or someshit probably.

this makes alot of sense.
try the same experiment with a tablespoon of flour and mix it with warm/hot water. the flour just balls up and you get lumps of dry flour. do it again with cold (fridge) water. mixes perfectly every time, no lumps.

:icon_cheers:

 

[Fourstar]

any benifit of wort/beer clarity you have noticed nick?

 

[Nick JD]

so you're mashing with water straight from the HWS ?

I pulled the cover off and set it to 58C at the tap. HWS protein rest strike just happens to be the upper limit of bad bugs and the lower limit of tightarseness.

As most here will have already realised; my arse is a diamond mine.

 

[Nick JD]

any benifit of wort/beer clarity you have noticed nick?

My "first runnings" out of the bag are always reasonably clear (not mash tun clear though), but bag dunk sparging certainly squeezes out the muck. I'll keep an eye out next time to see if it's clearer - but it's something I've pretty much ignored, the whole wort clarity thing because when I "flameout" the whirlfloc has cleared the whole pot so much I can almost see the floculant falling all the way to the bottom of the pot.

 

[MattC]

Well this thread is interesting. I was of the opinion that a protein rest was not required for modified malts and if one was performed you ran the risk of reducing head retention. Is the general consenses from you guys that a proetin rest with modified malts should be kept to 15 min or under? I was doing a protein rest at about 52 however due to the way I do things in the brewery, I had to leave for about 25 min. I feel this was reducing my head retention and I stopped and reverted to single infusions at 65-69C, head retention improved.

Has anyone here brewed two identical brews, one with a protein rest and one without and compared the two? What are your thoughts?

Also what difference would one expect from rest of 52C compared to 55C?

Cheers

 

[Thirsty Boy]

52 is about the lower limit you'd want to play at before you did start to get into territory where you could start knocking out head retention protiens.

With well modified malts you never "need" a P rest - but that doesn't mean they do nothing if you do one. Like Nick, i find a distinct improvement in my head formation, retention and lacing when i do a short P rest compared to the same recipe without the P rest. I do mine at 54-56 for only 5 minutes then hit the button to ramp.

But i have to say - for me (and nick notes this too) its as much about process as it is about anything else. I aim to go in at 55, which gives me a bit of time and leeway to settle in the circulation of my RIMS before i ramp to my first Sacch rest. If i dont hit dough in temp spot on, thats OK a bit lower or a bit higher is still in the right zone ad the temp is low enough so that nothing is happening at any great speed anyway.

I do it more or less every brew.

TB

 

[Filby]

From what I understood, most base malts here in australia (and around the world) are fully modified so dont benefit from doing a protein rest. I thought I read somewhere that if you do do a protein rest with fully modified malts you will actually end up with a beer with no to very little body.


Fil

 

[AndrewQLD]

From what I understood, most base malts here in australia (and around the world) are fully modified so dont benefit from doing a protein rest. I thought I read somewhere that if you do do a protein rest with fully modified malts you will actually end up with a beer with no to very little body.


Fil

You may well have read that, but this is after all the internet, and you can't always believe what you read.
As ThirstyBoy pointed out you can get benefits from a P rest but are asking for trouble if you do a low 50 one, it's really all a question of degrees, pun intended.

Andrew

 

[chunckious]

You may well have read that, but this is after all the internet, and you can't always believe what you read.
As ThirstyBoy pointed out you can get benefits from a P rest but are asking for trouble if you do a low 50 one, it's really all a question of degrees, pun intended.

Andrew

I could be wrong, but I thought that Ross from CB made a comment like this to one of the users.

 

[Nick JD]

From what I can gather, all roads seem to lead back to John Palmer's description of the impacts of protein rests on well modified malts being negative.

I fear this may be a classic case of if everyone says it it must be true yet there's only one source - a very popular source.

"In fact, using a protein rest on fully modified malts tends to remove most of the body of a beer, leaving it thin and watery." Says Jesus Palmer, and to that I say, CODSWALLOP.

 

[bigandhairy]

I have just mashed in my first protein rest at 54.5deg. Looking forward too seeing/tasting the results. Its an English IPA that I'd like to mash at 68deg, should i do a rest at say 60-62 or just push straight on to 68? I biab so I intend to raise the bag during temp ramps. Having said that I use a 12inch round false bottom that sits over the element in the urn, i'm pretty sure I wouldnt have melting issues but I'm too chicken to try it lol. Anyone done it without losing the grain bill out the scorched hole??

Cheers
bah

 

[Pat Casey]

Malting and mashing are contiguous processes. A lot of what happened in the brewhouse now happens in the malthouse. Modern malts are fairly well modified and don't require a protein rest. That does not mean a brief protein rest will not have some benefits. It will depend on the time and temperature of the rest. It will also depend on the protein content of the malt and the degree of modification. For example, British ale malts have tended to have lowish protein contents and to have been fairly well modified. A protein rest would be at best pointless, more likely detrimental.

With a modern malt, a protein rest at 50 deg for 30 minutes would grind many of the proteins necessary to moutfeel and head retention down to amino acids. The beer would taste empty and not hold a head. This is what the warnings are about. A protein rest in the high 50s for ten minutes would be a quite different matter.

However, would it be worth the effort? It doesn't matter how a person brews, there is always a hierachy of reward for effort. If you want to improve your beer the best step to take is the one which gives the most reward for the least effort. How does a ten minute protein rest fit into such a hierachy? It will depend on individual equipment and procedures. If it's easy to do then there might be benefits for some malts and beer styles from a 10 minute rest in the high 50s. If it's going to be a major hassle then don't bother because modern malts don't require a protein rest. Save your efforts for something else.

There's still proteolytic activity into the low 60s, so mash regimes such as 60/70 or 62/72 will combine something of a protein rest with a sacchrification rest.

Pat
Absolute Homebrew
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[yardy]

When I'm not doing style-nazi brews with RO water I have always used the good old Rheem, it's lined with ceramic glass and is basically just a big urn. Gets flushed regularly. With your lovely soft water in BBerg I reckon you could probably do a Bopils straight out of your hot water taps.

no soft bundy water at Moore Park mate, Burton bore water here

cheers

 

[AndrewQLD]

no soft bundy water at Moore Park mate, Burton bore water here

cheers

Poor Yardy is probably growing Stalactites out of his nose with that kind of water going in his brew.
Bring on the Burton Ales Yardy :super:

Cheers
Andrew

 

[CosmicBertie]

Im not sure if this is connected, but i've only made one lager with Weyermann Bo Pils malt, with a protein rest at approx 55C (though it might have been 52C). I did a full vol mash at that temp for 15 mins, then switched on the burner to raise it to 66C, then mashed for 75 mins. Now, this lager is the clearest brew I've done. My ales, which havent had a protein rest, have chill haze when cold, but this lager is crystal clear. So believe it may help with clearing up the finished product.

 

[Bribie G]

From what I can gather, all roads seem to lead back to John Palmer's description of the impacts of protein rests on well modified malts being negative.

I fear this may be a classic case of if everyone says it it must be true yet there's only one source - a very popular source.

"In fact, using a protein rest on fully modified malts tends to remove most of the body of a beer, leaving it thin and watery." Says Jesus Palmer, and to that I say, CODSWALLOP.

Palmer does indeed seem to come out with some "dinosaur" opinions, for example that no chilling cannot work because the wort needs to be thermally shocked to produce the cold break. I shudder to think what his opinion of BIAB would be.

Weyermann malts are fully modified and "modern" but it doesn't stop the Helles Breweries doing a protein rest. However a lot of German Breweries do a "Hochkurz" mash nowadays when they go straight into a sach. rest - which would possibly explain the adequate but not spectacular head you get with the likes of Oettinger, as opposed to the rich heads on Helles and other Munich beers where they still do a protein rest, AFAIK.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

From what I can gather, all roads seem to lead back to John Palmer's description of the impacts of protein rests on well modified malts being negative.

I fear this may be a classic case of if everyone says it it must be true yet there's only one source - a very popular source.

"In fact, using a protein rest on fully modified malts tends to remove most of the body of a beer, leaving it thin and watery." Says Jesus Palmer, and to that I say, CODSWALLOP.

In JPs defence - i think he means "protein rest" as traditionally defined - which would be a reasonably lengthy rest at about 50C - i've even had people tell me that what i call a protein rest in my brewing actually isn't one, because its not the "standard" version from an old fashioned 50/60/70 decotion/step regime.

If a P rest is only a P rest when its "that" particular version, which when JP wrote his book was probably the only version anyone reallly knew about... Then fair enough, i think you could spoil a beer with it. But - How to Brew is a beginners book, and we all know that brewers both home and pro like to take nuggets of wisdom they gather while they are learning their craft - and turn them into hard and fast brewing "lore". A Protien rest for a specific purpose, at a very narrow temp range, for a narrow period of time... That's advanced brewing technique and hopefully, by the time people are even concerned with that level of detail, they've already shucked off the bonds of beginner's "rules of thumb" and do things only because they already know what they want to achieve with a particular change in their brewing process.

 

[mje1980]

Playing around with these. Second one going now, though i hit 55 with this one ( opposed to 59 the other day ), so pretty happy. Im only doing a short 5 min p rest. I can't wait to ferment both these beers!!. I did a koelsh grist both times, though i may do one with 2565, and the other with a helles style lager yeast, 830 maybe?.

 

[ashley_leask]

I have just mashed in my first protein rest at 54.5deg. Looking forward too seeing/tasting the results. Its an English IPA that I'd like to mash at 68deg, should i do a rest at say 60-62 or just push straight on to 68? I biab so I intend to raise the bag during temp ramps. Having said that I use a 12inch round false bottom that sits over the element in the urn, i'm pretty sure I wouldnt have melting issues but I'm too chicken to try it lol. Anyone done it without losing the grain bill out the scorched hole??

Cheers
bah

I haven't done step mashes, but I dont raise the bag when I ramp up to 78C for mashout. Just keep pumping with the paint stirrer to keep the grain off the bottom. I figure convection currents from the element will lift the bag far enough off anyway. So far so good.

 

[jacknohe]

I've read through the posts where others raise the bag for a BIAB in an Urn after the Protein rest while heating. Would there be any detriment caused to the wort (and eventually the beer) by leaving the bag of grain in the urn while heating it to the desired Sach rest temperature?

I have a collander over the element and I use a paddle to mix it around while heating.