Protein Rests

[manticle]

None that I can think of as long as the bag itself is not in direct contact with whatever you're using to heat. I don't BIAB but I do step and I use an immersion element so the grain gets ramped through all the temperature levels.

My understanding is that this is actually beneficial as you may target other sets of enzymes as you go. I believe HERMS & RIMS systems etc will ramp similarly and I'd guess the braumeister does too. I mash in an esky so people will have to forgive me if the above is incorrect re herms, rims and braumeisters/

 

[Jord]

With a modern malt, a protein rest at 50 deg for 30 minutes would grind many of the proteins necessary to moutfeel and head retention down to amino acids. The beer would taste empty and not hold a head. This is what the warnings are about. A protein rest in the high 50s for ten minutes would be a quite different matter.

Following on from this statement, would Pat or any of the other chemistry minded brewers out there be able to comment on the benefit of using a short mid 50's protein rest to increase the free amino nitrogen pool in order to assist the yeast in reducing diacetyl in the finished beer? Diacetyl is an ongoing problem for me and after excluding all the usual fermentation variables to the best of my abilities, I was wondering if this might be worth a try?

Cheers

Jord

 

[Hargie]

Following on from this statement, would Pat or any of the other chemistry minded brewers out there be able to comment on the benefit of using a short mid 50's protein rest to increase the free amino nitrogen pool in order to assist the yeast in reducing diacetyl in the finished beer? Diacetyl is an ongoing problem for me and after excluding all the usual fermentation variables to the best of my abilities, I was wondering if this might be worth a try?

Cheers

Jord

...Yep...short rest - up to 10 min at 52c....

 

[MHB]

Following on from this statement, would Pat or any of the other chemistry minded brewers out there be able to comment on the benefit of using a short mid 50's protein rest to increase the free amino nitrogen pool in order to assist the yeast in reducing diacetyl in the finished beer? Diacetyl is an ongoing problem for me and after excluding all the usual fermentation variables to the best of my abilities, I was wondering if this might be worth a try?

Cheers

Jord

I strongly suspect that any Diacetyl issues arent going to come from or be fixed by your mashing regime.
Diacetyl is really almost exclusively the domain of yeast metabolism and excessive amounts of Diacetyl can best be addressed by taking another look at your yeast healthy and pitching rates, if you are rehydrating dry yeast I would start there (i.e. dont).
As a first step I would double whatever pitch rate you are now using and just sprinkle a quality dry yeast into the wort at or about 1g/L and see if that fixes the problem.
Mark

 

[Deebo]

Whats the theory with not re-hydrating the dry yeast? I thought this improved the viable cell count?

 

[Hargie]

totally respecting what Mark said but still think 52c rest is good practice in any case, as are adequate O2 levels, pitching rate and yeast viability & vitality...good fan levels ( < 160-170mg/l ) are essential to yeast health...Jord are you using adjuncts which may dilute this level ?....

 

[MHB]

Without opening a whole new can of worms and dragging this thread further off topic.
IFF you rehydrate properly at exactly the right temperature and follow good hygienic practice it is probably beneficial; sadly this is often not the case.
By using a large pitch and not rehydrating; if you Diacetyl problem goes away it will be reasonable to assume that your rehydration or other yeast management procedures is causing problems rather than making the beer better (i.e. killing most of your yeast).
As a retailer I see this day in day out, people read here and else ware that they should rehydrate, but not how they should go about it, this results in a lot of people having problems.
My advice is to follow the manufacturers instructions on every packet of Saf yeast it says Sprinkle into wort, Danstar packaging has rehydration steps with a very precise temperature range and a drawing of a thermometer (just in case you werent sure that temperature is important), when I sell their yeasts I recommend following their instructions, precisely!
What I proposed is a diagnostic test to see if the cause of the problem is the yeast handling, not what I expect anyone to do on a brew by brew basis, but try it and see if the problem gets fixed, either way you will have a clearer picture of the cause.

As to the question of a protein rest - Yes naturally always do one.
I have even started mucking around with mashing in at ambient ~20oC ramping to 50 for 10 then up...
Mark

 

[Bribie G]

I've read through the posts where others raise the bag for a BIAB in an Urn after the Protein rest while heating. Would there be any detriment caused to the wort (and eventually the beer) by leaving the bag of grain in the urn while heating it to the desired Sach rest temperature?

I have a collander over the element and I use a paddle to mix it around while heating.

When doing stepped mashes with my BIAB in urn setup I always leave the bag in situ and pump with a paint stirrer whilst ramping the temperature. If you do a lot of brewing, consider investing in a secondary over-the-side immersion heater for around $100 to double the speed of the ramp-ups, not to mention bringing the wort to the boil.

 

[stux]

When doing stepped mashes with my BIAB in urn setup I always leave the bag in situ and pump with a paint stirrer whilst ramping the temperature. If you do a lot of brewing, consider investing in a secondary over-the-side immersion heater for around $100 to double the speed of the ramp-ups, not to mention bringing the wort to the boil.

If you don't leave the bag in-situ then you have the problem of when you put it back your mash will drop in temperature again

Also, when I tried it in the past, I found it a pain to take temperature measurements and stir while the bag was suspended... thus a cake rack and constant agitation while heating with the bag in situ is a much better solution

 

[jacknohe]

If you don't leave the bag in-situ then you have the problem of when you put it back your mash will drop in temperature again

Also, when I tried it in the past, I found it a pain to take temperature measurements and stir while the bag was suspended... thus a cake rack and constant agitation while heating with the bag in situ is a much better solution

Yeah figured as much. Just hadn't seen it mentioned. Ok thanks guys I'll give this protein rest a go.
Cheers

 

[Nick JD]

Another way to step up your mash temperature is to remove a few liters of the mash, boil it, and return it to your mash.

 

[Bribie G]

Another way to step up your mash temperature is to remove a few liters of the mash, boil it, and return it to your mash.

Or use pumps to

 

[Nick JD]

Or use pumps to

I always expect Steamboat Willy to pop up in that video.

 

[Xoxon]

If I add some oats to an AG porter brew for a smoother chewier mouth feel, does a protein rest help achieve this from the oats?

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Jord are you using adjuncts which may dilute this level ?....

This - if you are making all malt, or even mostly malt worts - the chances that your FAN levels are low enough to be the cause of your diacetyl problems is pretty low.

And i hate to be all mega brewer and non natural about it - but even if low FAN is your problem, a 1/4 tspn of yeast nutrient is a shitload easier than adding a mash rest and will probably work better anyway.

 

[hoppy2B]

Protien = Flavour